birdie_man
New
I think I remember that story....his 6 iron...?
New Woods
- Thread starter rwebber3
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Erik_K
New
Millrat said:
I'll chime in and add credence to PI's statements that OEM's do a less than stellar job at controlling lofts, lengths, etc. My local club fitter actually visited several big name facilities and you'd be amazed at how fast these clubs are made, the heads strapped on, etc.
You are paying for the name, and that's it. By and large, brands like KZG, SMT, Wishon, Snakeyes, etc make an iron/driver that is just as good if not better than their big name counterparts.
Also, I used to work for the Rick Smith Academy in Naples. And right when I left Rick brought in two of the best fitters/club makers in the business. These guys used to make clubs for the pros and one of them actualy built KJ Choi's clubs. He told me a similar story about the quality of the shafts and much the graphite the big name OEM's use suck. One of their biggest problems is actually convincing these high-end country clubbers that their stuff is actually better and they can often charge less for a custom driver. To convince me, he showed me some slow-mo video of some crazy behavior of a graphite shaft flexing (where it shouldn't be). I was astounded and it was then that I realized there's more out there that what I am seeing on TV.
The bottom line: go and get fit. It's cheaper and the clubs will be built to YOUR specifications-the right lofts, grip size, shaft flex (this also varies from manufacturer to manufacturer), shaft length, cosmetics, etc. There's a lot of variables to tweak and the odds of you finding a club OFF THE RACK that satisfies your needs is doubtful at best.
Yeah maybe you can control something like loft to some degree with a fair amount of regularity, but there are a host of other variables that might need adjustment.
Also, did you know that Callaway did a study that shows how the average hacker buys clubs, new types of balls, gloves, etc every 8 months or so? I was told this by a guy that runs a local driving range/pro shop here in Florida. He buys and sells golf equipment routinely and always knows what's new in terms of equipment. Anyway, this is what prompts them to pump new irons all the time and hit you for like $1300 a set. Tell me, from one year to the next has the technology really changed that much to command such a price?
Granted clubs , golf technology in general, has come a very long way-but these prices are just outrageous. You should realize that you are paying for the TV ads, the flashy logos, etc when you are picking up a set of 'name brand' clubs from Edwin Watts.
birdie_man
New
Cool.
Thanks.
Anyone else have any thoughts? (either way, of course)
...
How's Snake Eyes stuff?
Looks mint to me.
http://www.golfsmith.com/ps/browse.php?Ntk=All&N=275624+1532537
Thanks.
Anyone else have any thoughts? (either way, of course)
...
How's Snake Eyes stuff?
Looks mint to me.
http://www.golfsmith.com/ps/browse.php?Ntk=All&N=275624+1532537
birdie_man
New
These look sweet:
http://www.golfsmith.com/products/SE2660#
http://www.golfsmith.com/products/SE2661
You could make a mint combo set.
...
Ugh lots of offset tho actually. No good.
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Ya Snake Eyes look cool in general....wish those had less offset....that bugs me...
The thing about a lot of these components is that a lot of them don't seem to be designed as well aesthetically.....a lot of em don't seem to be as sexy. I think they need to fix that if they want ppl to buy em.
http://www.golfsmith.com/products/SE2660#
http://www.golfsmith.com/products/SE2661
You could make a mint combo set.
...
Ugh lots of offset tho actually. No good.
...
Ya Snake Eyes look cool in general....wish those had less offset....that bugs me...
The thing about a lot of these components is that a lot of them don't seem to be designed as well aesthetically.....a lot of em don't seem to be as sexy. I think they need to fix that if they want ppl to buy em.
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Millrat
New
Erik_K said:
I agree that the prices are out of control, off-topic IMO.
Again, a story about a clubfitter visiting a factory-not objective IMO.
Of course they're built fast, that would not amaze me-in fact I think it increases quality. How fast do you think it takes to build a quality automoblie?
I agree with you the Snake Eyes, KZG and others make fine products, probably better in some cases.
What the component market is missing is the looks of the big names. KZG is probably the closest to meeting the aesthetic level of the Mizunos and Titleists.
I'm not against fitting so much as the way some clubfitters try to make people feel like suckers for buying off the rack.
CW
Perfect Impact
New
I bet most clubfitters SEEM to be pushing as you imply, but that the reality is a passion for what really is best for the golfer. And Wishon makes the comment that the LESS skilled you are, the MORE you need to be fitted. A skilled golfer can play with a coke bottle.
Millrat
New
birdie_man said:
Try www.kzg.com, select ZO Blades. Probably my favorite looking blade and zero offset.
I agree with you 100% on the sexy factor.
CW
Erik_K
New
Millrat said:
You still fail to grasp the overall point.
It has nothing to do with clubmakers telling stories to make you feel like an idiot since you didn't buy their stuff.
It has to do with the MYRIAD of possibilities available to the golfer in terms of fitting: shaft flex, lie, loft, grip size, shaft length, swing weight just to name a few. These are variables that can only evaluated with a lie board and different types of shafts that help the golfer find a combination that is a proper blend for THEM! You don't get that off the rack, you just don't; I'm sorry.
Tell me, considering all of those variables, do you think it's possible that when you go to the store and drop $1300 for a set of irons that, just because you spent that much, you are going to get a superior product? If anything the chips are stacked against the golfer since the only 'knowledge' they are armed with is what magazine article caught their eye, or what they read in Golf Digest the night before.
Also, are you a manufacturing engineer by any chance? I hold 3 degrees in engineering and just because something is massed produced does not mean it's automatically 'good quality.' I have nothing against the big OEMs. Surely they do spend a lot of money designing clubs and pump loads of cash into their manufacturing operation. I am not a disgruntled Callaway employee or something; just someone offering an opinion that goes against the grain when it comes to club fitting in general.
Also consider this. Imagine that if instead of creating a set of irons for the 'average' man, all of the Big OEMs decided to open seperate stores or mandate their stuff only be fitted on a case by case basis. So instead of just walking into the store, you'd have to set an appointment and work with a fitter (using Ping, Cobra, etc) to get your irons. Do you think they'd make more, or less money? The answer to the question lies in their ability to not necesarily make a product that is tailored to the individual, but to make as many as possible and stock the shelves. THAT's why the clubs are massed produced, but any serious golfer knows the value of a launch monitor, shaft flex, etc.
The guy that told me the factory story is Ricky Strain, a master club fitter and he's regarded as one of the best fitters/club builders in Florida. Perhaps you should email him and ask about quality control (he used to run an engineering business) and compare the level of detail HE puts into each custom set as opposed to level of experience with making clubs that the factory worker possesses.
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EdStraker
New
Erik_K said:
If you buy OEM equipment, the best way to do it is to go to a demo day where they have the custom van and assemble the set for you. Of course, this option isn't available if you don't live near an area where the vans make stops for demo days.
I know Mizuno and Cleveland Golf offer this.
Erik_K
New
EdStraker said:
Excellent.
Yes, this is the way to go as some OEMs also have fitting stations at various golf courses or at some promotional events. I believe one can become certified to fit people from an OEM. For example, when I played at the RTJ trail in Alabama, one of the pros there could fit you with Titleist equipment. They also do this at Tiburon in Naples.
Millrat
New
Overall Point
I feel I grasp the point very well thanks. I feel that I have been treated like a sucker for buying off the rack and that is a fact. I challenged the motives of some clubfitters as you have challenged the motives of the big OEMs.
I never stated that off the rack clubs were a good fit for any individual-only that they are produced with a certain level of consistency.
I'm not an Engineer however I've worked in many production facilities and quality and production are not mutually exclusive. I did not state that high speed manufacturing "automatically" meant anything. I currently work in QC at a Nuclear Facility (no my name is not Homer Simpson =])
Remember this too, OEMs do not sell their products only to the serious golfer. There is a value to the consumer that can pick a club off the rack and play decent golf with it, without having to be analyzed.
With all due respect to your freind, factory workers assemble clubs from bulk produced components as does he-they assemble for everybody and he assembles for the individual.
CW
Erik_K said:
I feel I grasp the point very well thanks. I feel that I have been treated like a sucker for buying off the rack and that is a fact. I challenged the motives of some clubfitters as you have challenged the motives of the big OEMs.
I never stated that off the rack clubs were a good fit for any individual-only that they are produced with a certain level of consistency.
I'm not an Engineer however I've worked in many production facilities and quality and production are not mutually exclusive. I did not state that high speed manufacturing "automatically" meant anything. I currently work in QC at a Nuclear Facility (no my name is not Homer Simpson =])
Remember this too, OEMs do not sell their products only to the serious golfer. There is a value to the consumer that can pick a club off the rack and play decent golf with it, without having to be analyzed.
With all due respect to your freind, factory workers assemble clubs from bulk produced components as does he-they assemble for everybody and he assembles for the individual.
CW
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Perfect Impact
New
The fitter does a ton more than just "assemble." He regularizes lofts and weights, spines and aligns shafts, determines appropriate swing weight and installs what THAT requires, selects and fits grips as to size, texture, weight. He adjusts lie angle. Most importantly, he finds and installs shafts that are appropriate for the type and speed of transition and swing itself, for the individual. All of which requires a lot more knowledge and skill than the guy in the garage assembling components...
birdie_man
New
EdStraker said:
That sounds good.....what do they do tho? Do they check freq. and spine and weight and all that good stuff? (i.e. everything)
Bill Miracle
New
While I agree with the fitting process...
some of these club makers come off as snake oil saleman.
This topic hit a nerve.....for the very reason I am traveling to see Brian when there must be 1000 golf instructors in Florida.
I'm pretty sure the clubmaker in daytona is actually in Port Orange...named Glenn. If so, my experience with this person was not so stellar.
I took a set of new cally fusions in to be checked for proper fit. Before he checked anything, I got the spiel about how junk the shafts are (Nippon steel), how they are too whippy for me, made for a lady, will be off on lie and loft, etc... He had me hit balls into a net, put impact tape on 3 clubs, took some static measurements, measured the freq. of my 5i and came up with a price for a Harrison shaft for my irons. I asked about Rifle TF and I was told they were "rebar"...junk. PS...the guy is not a member of the PCS (not necessarily a big deal). The final analysis was...I'll never hit these clubs well. Being in sales, I just didn't "buy" this rap. Decided to hold off. Asked a lot of guys on the courses I play about their satisfaction after purchases from this guy. Half were estatic, half were not.
I did go to the PCS site. Asked a lot of questions in the forums. Got a lot of great answers from helpful professionals (kind of like this site...hmmm) Found a PCS clubfitter in the Daytona area. He took me out to a range, looked at my ball flight. Hooked up a launch monitor and a swing speed/tempo radar, static measured, had me hit every iron for dynamic fit, checked lie and loft of all clubs (was spot on all to factory specs) and did all that without a charge. At the end of the day, he told me that being new to golf, I probably wouldn't see a great deal of improvement in my game and other than selecting the right shaft for my swing, these clubs were about right for me. He said it was my decision but the worse we would do is take the clubs out of the equasion for swing faults. Either way, if he didn't see me now he would hope to see me later when my swing improved. Most of my improvement was going to come from time, practice and lessons. I did have him change my shafts. And, he put in Rifle TF shafts for less $ than the other guy wanted to put in shafts that cost 1/2 as much. More importantly, he was brutally honest and there was no "let's make a deal" in his manner.
Bottom line for writing this....Since coming back to golf after a long layoff, I can see why the sport gains 2,000,000 new players and loses just as many each year. A lot of people make a living in what I consider "preying" upon the obsessed and ignorant. This discussion and my experince in club fitter vs. oem and most recently lessons from supposed PGA professionals....have lead me to understand that you really have to do your homework or you'll spend a fortune on "fortune tellers". There are as many snake oil salesman club fitters as there are "kool aid stand" golf instructors. Both club fitters knew I was a. new to golf b. extremly passionate (obsessed) about becoming the best I could be at this sport. One, I left his shop feeling like I met the flim flamed man. The other I felt cared about my future in the sport enough to be very honest...at his expense. I'm not saying the first guy doesn't have talent. I just think his financial interests were overriding what was the best interest of his customer.
Speaking of OEMs...I might have gotten lucky but my Cally Fusions were spot on the factory specs. I just got a great deal on some forged MacGregors. They were checked and was spot on. Their lofts, lie, length, frequencies, and oscalations were fine. OEM's produce maybe 10,000 sets of an iron model. It can be expected that some will be off. The entire set, not hardly. A loft here, a lie there sure.
But, there are sure a lot of folks that make a living in the golf industry. Just like golf instructors, you can have club fitters that make a living vs. being truly dedicated to helping those that help them make a living. Like everything else it's buyer beware!!! The sign "club maker" over the door doesn't guarantee any better results than off the shelf in my opinion.
One other thing I like about buying OEMs and having a competent club fitter dial them in. A fellow golfer bought a set of non-oems from the guy in Port Orange. He paid as much 3 years ago as he did for his new Mizunos. He was very unhappy with his purchase from the club fitter and those clubs are sitting in his attic. He went back to playing his Ping I3s and played them until about a month ago. He couldn't get much of anything for the custom built clubs. He had no trouble selling the pings.
Ahhh, glad I got that out. Time to eat!
some of these club makers come off as snake oil saleman.
This topic hit a nerve.....for the very reason I am traveling to see Brian when there must be 1000 golf instructors in Florida.
I'm pretty sure the clubmaker in daytona is actually in Port Orange...named Glenn. If so, my experience with this person was not so stellar.
I took a set of new cally fusions in to be checked for proper fit. Before he checked anything, I got the spiel about how junk the shafts are (Nippon steel), how they are too whippy for me, made for a lady, will be off on lie and loft, etc... He had me hit balls into a net, put impact tape on 3 clubs, took some static measurements, measured the freq. of my 5i and came up with a price for a Harrison shaft for my irons. I asked about Rifle TF and I was told they were "rebar"...junk. PS...the guy is not a member of the PCS (not necessarily a big deal). The final analysis was...I'll never hit these clubs well. Being in sales, I just didn't "buy" this rap. Decided to hold off. Asked a lot of guys on the courses I play about their satisfaction after purchases from this guy. Half were estatic, half were not.
I did go to the PCS site. Asked a lot of questions in the forums. Got a lot of great answers from helpful professionals (kind of like this site...hmmm) Found a PCS clubfitter in the Daytona area. He took me out to a range, looked at my ball flight. Hooked up a launch monitor and a swing speed/tempo radar, static measured, had me hit every iron for dynamic fit, checked lie and loft of all clubs (was spot on all to factory specs) and did all that without a charge. At the end of the day, he told me that being new to golf, I probably wouldn't see a great deal of improvement in my game and other than selecting the right shaft for my swing, these clubs were about right for me. He said it was my decision but the worse we would do is take the clubs out of the equasion for swing faults. Either way, if he didn't see me now he would hope to see me later when my swing improved. Most of my improvement was going to come from time, practice and lessons. I did have him change my shafts. And, he put in Rifle TF shafts for less $ than the other guy wanted to put in shafts that cost 1/2 as much. More importantly, he was brutally honest and there was no "let's make a deal" in his manner.
Bottom line for writing this....Since coming back to golf after a long layoff, I can see why the sport gains 2,000,000 new players and loses just as many each year. A lot of people make a living in what I consider "preying" upon the obsessed and ignorant. This discussion and my experince in club fitter vs. oem and most recently lessons from supposed PGA professionals....have lead me to understand that you really have to do your homework or you'll spend a fortune on "fortune tellers". There are as many snake oil salesman club fitters as there are "kool aid stand" golf instructors. Both club fitters knew I was a. new to golf b. extremly passionate (obsessed) about becoming the best I could be at this sport. One, I left his shop feeling like I met the flim flamed man. The other I felt cared about my future in the sport enough to be very honest...at his expense. I'm not saying the first guy doesn't have talent. I just think his financial interests were overriding what was the best interest of his customer.
Speaking of OEMs...I might have gotten lucky but my Cally Fusions were spot on the factory specs. I just got a great deal on some forged MacGregors. They were checked and was spot on. Their lofts, lie, length, frequencies, and oscalations were fine. OEM's produce maybe 10,000 sets of an iron model. It can be expected that some will be off. The entire set, not hardly. A loft here, a lie there sure.
But, there are sure a lot of folks that make a living in the golf industry. Just like golf instructors, you can have club fitters that make a living vs. being truly dedicated to helping those that help them make a living. Like everything else it's buyer beware!!! The sign "club maker" over the door doesn't guarantee any better results than off the shelf in my opinion.
One other thing I like about buying OEMs and having a competent club fitter dial them in. A fellow golfer bought a set of non-oems from the guy in Port Orange. He paid as much 3 years ago as he did for his new Mizunos. He was very unhappy with his purchase from the club fitter and those clubs are sitting in his attic. He went back to playing his Ping I3s and played them until about a month ago. He couldn't get much of anything for the custom built clubs. He had no trouble selling the pings.
Ahhh, glad I got that out. Time to eat!
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