No force against the shaft (FATS)

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GeoffDickson

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A key feature of the mega thread is the argument that there should be no force against the shaft. Put alternatively: at bottom of downswing and at impact all the force should going away from the ball toward the golfer.

Is it this force that provides the 'up' for the 'coupling point up and in movement'? I am thinking yes...but cannot yet conceptualize how this is achieved without swinging the club right over the top of the ball, dislocating left shoulder or jumping into the air in follow thru.

Does applying no FATS guarantee that all the force is normal (i.e. along the shaft towards the golfer)? My guess is that it is necessary but insufficient
 
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GeoffDickson

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Thanks Nate. I am on to it. Below are some basic definitions offered by Brian in that thread.

"Pull Back" is the amount the left shoulder, left hip, and left knee MOVE AWAY from address.

"Run Up" is the move FROM the "Pull Back"....and how CLOSE it gets to the left foot, and how far the radius is temporarily buried in the ground, along with the FORCE of the "Run Up."

The "Jump" is how far you can get the left shoulder, left hip, and left knee to MOVE AWAY the end of the "Run Up." Plus, how fast and how hard it goes. And how SHORT the radius gets.

The hula hoop analogy: If the bottom of your swing radius is the bottom of a hula hoop then when you get in the Run Up position, if you swung from that position without the jump up, you would stick the hula hoop/swing swing radius and the club way into the ground. The jump up moves the hula hoop up so you aren't on a path that would hypothetically take a 5 inch deep divot.

Brian's epiphany: no one TALKS ABOUT how the radius need to be IN THE GROUND SIGNIFICANTLY around release point, and then YANKED out of the ground by "the JUMP."

So the jump = the normal force?
So the normal force is what takes the club on trajectory AWAY from 5 inches undergound to a shallower depth?
 
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birly-shirly

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This isn't a complete answer, but a large part of the normal force is what you intuitively apply to the club to swing it in a circle. Whether you do it consciously or not, if you swing a driver at 100mph, you're pulling up on the grip with a force of around 100lbs through impact.
 
cmartingolf

cmartingolf

New
Feelings I'm playing around with since the PB,RU and Jump and MJ/BM's research.

I have a hard time hitting pure shots with short irons with no FATS. So far, for me, I still feel like I have force into the shaft with lean into the ground. When I do have not FATS, I hit it sky high and I'm not comfortable seeing that flight on my scoring shots.

As I get to the mid and long irons, I feel less force working to no FATS.

With the woods, I feel no FATS.

As a guy who can get the hooks with the 3-wood and driver, the NO FATS feel, or even upward pull, has really reduced the amount of "stuck" face hooks.

Anyway, just sharing some feels.
 
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JTillery

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Im with Chuck so far.......love it but hit shorter irons WAY too high so far. Awesome with long clubs. Struggling figuring out how to knock some loft off without too much down.......
 
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GeoffDickson

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birly-shirly said:
This isn't a complete answer, but a large part of the normal force is what you intuitively apply to the club to swing it in a circle. Whether you do it consciously or not, if you swing a driver at 100mph, you're pulling up on the grip with a force of around 100lbs through impact.
Click to expand...

So this would be analogous to a hammer throw (in track and field)?...in that sport you cannot apply FATS (given the flexible chain as opposed stiff shaft), so the only force you can apply is a normal force?...presumably the faster you spin, the more more normal force you can apply?
 
mandrin

mandrin

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GeoffDickson said:
A key feature of the mega thread is the argument that there should be no force against the shaft. Put alternatively: at bottom of downswing and at impact all the force should going away from the ball toward the golfer.

Is it this force that provides the 'up' for the 'coupling point up and in movement'? I am thinking yes...but cannot yet conceptualize how this is achieved without swinging the club right over the top of the ball, dislocating left shoulder or jumping into the air in follow thru.

Does applying no FATS guarantee that all the force is normal (i.e. along the shaft towards the golfer)? My guess is that it is necessary but insufficient
Click to expand...
GeoffDickson,

It is somewhat counter intuitive the idea that by pulling inwards one can increase clubhead speed, since the inward force and the club head trajectory are almost perpendicular to each other. We are indeed more used to fathom force and movement to be in line.

The reason why pulling up or inwards one can increase clubhead somewhat is due to injection of kinetic energy by the centripetal force doing positive work displacing the club head. Force and distance are here in line. Work is force times distance and results in an equivalent increase in kinetic energy. It is the same basic mechanism used intuitively by any kid to maintain a play ground swing going.

However you are right to ask yourself the question if I pull in might I possible miss the ball all together. Indeed someone really using this approach to gain some clubhead speed has to learn to adjust for the upward motion of the clubhead.

But this 'parametric acceleration' contribution is only significant when the centripetal force is at its maximum, hence close to impact. So the up/inward force is applied briskly only close to impact and does not displace the clubhead all that much and should hence not cause much problem for a seasoned golfer making the required adjustments in his swing.

Objects rotating require a centripetal force to keep them in orbit. The centripetal force along the shaft does not play a role in the release. However the much smaller centripetal force along the arm does indeed. Hence if you want to increase the 'normal' force acting on the grip than increase the angular speed of your arms. The other way is to use, close to impact, additionally, the parametric acceleration action but this always remains a minor contributor to clubhead speed..
 
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Jared Willerson

Super Moderator
The feel I have with short irons is more mid sole than leading edge. In hitting balls the last two days this is what knocked the loft of shorter irons down for me.

I agree this is easier with longer irons/woods.
 
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Lindsey Newman

New
Jared Willerson said:
The feel I have with short irons is more mid sole than leading edge. In hitting balls the last two days this is what knocked the loft of shorter irons down for me.

I agree this is easier with longer irons/woods.
Click to expand...

Jared, if you have anything to add to that could you expand? I take it as mid sole impact, but certainly your taking extra club to flight it down, yes?
 
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Mike O

New
Clarification

Could Brian or someone else let me know if I understand where you are coming from and see if I have this correct.

At one point, Zick or whoever said pull only 80% power, push only 50% power, pull and push 100% power. Now, the percentages aren't accurate but I think they give the essence of the argument at that time - that for full power you need to do both. Now I believe that you are saying there is no push. In fact no force against the shaft would also mean no pulling at an angle to the shaft creating pressure on the side of the shaft.

Now with this no force against the shaft -
1) are you saying that one would only pull - no push throughout the entire swing?
2) If you only pulled along the shaft length - the shaft would never turn in a circle it would just move in a straight line - I would think that you'd need pull it at some angle to the shaft to create leverage and rotation. So you have forces that are not just along the shaft length or directed along the shaft length.

I would love some clarification so I understand what you guys are meaning when you say No force against the shaft. How is it defined and what periods of the movement does it exist?
 
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birly-shirly

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Mike - I asked questions about similar issues. As far as I understood the answers, Brian's position is that there is necessary FATS during the downswing for optimal speed - but that it's gone by impact. The 80% figure was in Soft Draw - and I understand that this has been revised down in latest models to 60-something %.

My understanding is that FATS would be an outward force. To the options you gave, you need to add centripetal (inward) force. That's the pull of the arms on the handle that brings the club around in something of a circle.
 
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Mike O

New
fats

Thanks Birley for your reply. So they are saying only at certain points you'd have no FATS.

If I understand you correctly Bertram, I would agree. You can certainly have FATS late.

The whole "no FATS" discussions have left me completely unfulfilled and uninterested, as they no one has really fully clarified the concept.
 
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BertramSterling

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My confusion is related to this 'flick', which is ideally timed on the ball. If it consciously happens then it seems like some FATS and that would occur around impact. But apparently there is no FATS at impact.

To go from a flat left wrist to a bent left wrist seems like a push with the right hand. Some people might pull with the left I suppose. Either way, would this not be putting FATS?

So maybe I am misunderstanding the flick. I suppose it could be more of a late rotation than a hitting motion with the wrists, but this seems at odds with the twistaway and squaring the face (but maybe it is?)
 
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johnnymac2201

New
Think about trick shot artists that hit the ball with the club head attached to a water hose or on a chain. Hard to put any force across that shaft.

How about twirling a weight on a string ala Ernest Jones. Does your wrist bend or stay straight?

Bill Melhorn used to have his students swing the club in a continuos circle. These circle drills done one or two handed show how the wrists should bend and where the "flick" is. Try it, you'll feel very it very quickly. John Rohan-Weaver used to make a training aid that reinforced that feeling, don't remember what it's called.

What's happened to John, I think he would be interested in all the "new" info popping up here.
 
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Robbohank

New
How about relating impact to the image of a hammer-thrower's motion? Talk about normal force.

Balasz Kiss Hammer Throw Slow Motion - YouTube

The Mehlhorn's drills Johnnymac mentions have some of that look to them (w/out the 360 degree body motion). For some reason those drills always remind me of Fred Couples' motion/intention.
 
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dbl

New
In several of the later vids Brian posts he shows the right wrist unhinging. It does not seem like much of a hit is involved in that process. This is the way I think about it:

When we hold the right wrist back we are applying a torque to do so (negative torque). In the absence of that negative torque, everything to the right and underneath the CP (in the DS and impact interval) (the right hand, shaft, clubhead) can free ride it in into impact.

In the beginning of getting the hang of this I'd say you might have to force yourself to applying some positive torque to get your muscles to accept they are no longer restraining, but once you have that, then dial it down to no torque.


BertramSterling said:
My confusion is related to this 'flick', which is ideally timed on the ball. If it consciously happens then it seems like some FATS and that would occur around impact. But apparently there is no FATS at impact.

To go from a flat left wrist to a bent left wrist seems like a push with the right hand. Some people might pull with the left I suppose. Either way, would this not be putting FATS?

So maybe I am misunderstanding the flick. I suppose it could be more of a late rotation than a hitting motion with the wrists, but this seems at odds with the twistaway and squaring the face (but maybe it is?)
Click to expand...
 
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BertramSterling

New
Thanks for the reply, will give that a go

Right now I can't play as much as I may want, and be able to try different things related to this release. So too much time to think about how it works rather than just doing it and figuring out more. Anyone that has seen a tour event in person knows this is the way the pro's swing; it looks different to the dragging you'll see on ranges, so I am onboard with it.

Curiously I did drop 5 mph in club head speed on the launch monitor we have earlier in the week. I just focused on no FATS through the swing, esp. through impact. The dispersion was better though. So must be doing something wrong, maybe still need to feel FATS in the first half of the downswing? Will report back when I get chance to make more efforts :)
 
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