Oh boy...here we go

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needham

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I guess everyone (media) will talk up Patty since tiger gave him his seal of approval

gotta get worse before better huh? what a joke
 
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Robbohank

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Does anyone really see a major difference in Harrington's action? I think these guys simply get bored with things and they all now latch onto this "if I'm not changing things then I'm going backwards!" mantra. I've yet to see anything definitive from Harrington about "what he needs to change to fix some "deficiency" he has in his swing". His game will continue to revolve around how he's putting. If he putts well he has a chance to win......if he doesn't he won't. He was lucky to win the Open in 2008.... he really played 18 WORSE than Van De Velve, captured ALL the luck that Jean didn't get, but rode that wave into the PGA. I'm amazed at all the crap Jean continues to get while Harrington played 18 like a 20 handicapper! I don't think he'll win another major.

Tiger continues to amaze me by making changes that seem to look WORSE.... but the sob has such a great short game and putter that I simply can't find an objective stance on his swing changes.
 
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dbl

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One obvious thing prior to this week that "everyone" was mentioning was his shorter backswing. I heard him decry that saying his backswing was just as long. However today on a tee shot with a hybrid it was definitely shorter.
 
birdie_man

birdie_man

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I wonder if some guys lean too heavy on the "You've gotta get worse first" as a way to take heat off themselves because they already have tinkered their way into a corner...

I like guys who are willing to change but like most people I keep thinking there couldn't have been too wrong with a game that won 3 out of a stretch of 6 majors.

I'm rooting for Paddy though. I would not hold it against a guy to have high expectations. It's important to know when you need to be more patient too though I think. What to change and what not to change, that is.
 
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ej20

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lookingtolearn said:
Does anyone know specifically what Harrington has been working on?
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Pivot controlled hands.He's looking to take as much arms and hands out of his swing as much as possible.Hes obviously not TGM influenced.

He's always been a great putter but average ballstriker.Greens in regulation about 60% which is below average for tour pros.
 
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dannyc

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ej20 said:
Pivot controlled hands.He's looking to take as much arms and hands out of his swing as much as possible.Hes obviously not TGM influenced.
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who wouldn't want to take the hands out of the equation, given the choice?
 
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needham

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ej20 said:
Pivot controlled hands.He's looking to take as much arms and hands out of his swing as much as possible.Hes obviously not TGM influenced.

He's always been a great putter but average ballstriker.Greens in regulation about 60% which is below average for tour pros.
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how do you get since he wants to take arms and hands out he is not TGM influenced?
 
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fronesis

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lookingtolearn said:
Does anyone know specifically what Harrington has been working on?
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Earlier this year someone on TV (might have been Johnny Miller) said he was trying to change from playing a fade to playing a draw. No idea of the validity of that claim, but it's one of the few specific things I've heard about the much-referred to 'changes'.
 
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ej20

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needham said:
how do you get since he wants to take arms and hands out he is not TGM influenced?
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The majority of TGM instructors teach hands controlled pivot which was Homers preference since he gave geometry presidence over physics.

The the mind is always on the hands and the pivot just tags along.You can see very clearly how differently Brian Gay swings it compared to most other players.Brian of course is heavily TGM influenced.A very armsy and handsy action with minimal pivot.Hips and shoulders very square at impact which suggest minimal pivot participation.Look at Hogan,Snead,Trevino,Tiger and most of the great ballstrikers.Open hips and shoulders at impact.You can't get that look without walloping the ball with your pivot.

Nothing wrong with hands controlled pivot but I believe pivot controlled hands is superior.
 
vjsinger

vjsinger

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ej20 said:
The majority of TGM instructors teach hands controlled pivot which was Homers preference since he gave geometry presidence over physics.

The the mind is always on the hands and the pivot just tags along.You can see very clearly how differently Brian Gay swings it compared to most other players.Brian of course is heavily TGM influenced.A very armsy and handsy action with minimal pivot.Hips and shoulders very square at impact which suggest minimal pivot participation.Look at Hogan,Snead,Trevino,Tiger and most of the great ballstrikers.Open hips and shoulders at impact.You can't get that look without walloping the ball with your pivot.

Nothing wrong with hands controlled pivot but I believe pivot controlled hands is superior.
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Very true. I always look for that more dynamic stress in the shaft in the takeaway for some clues on this. It is possible to stress the shaft in the takeaway with a hands contolled pivot, but more difficult. I also think some people may misread or misunderstand the differences and they exaggerate either too much.
 
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needham

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ej20 said:
The majority of TGM instructors teach hands controlled pivot which was Homers preference since he gave geometry presidence over physics.

The the mind is always on the hands and the pivot just tags along.You can see very clearly how differently Brian Gay swings it compared to most other players.Brian of course is heavily TGM influenced.A very armsy and handsy action with minimal pivot.Hips and shoulders very square at impact which suggest minimal pivot participation.Look at Hogan,Snead,Trevino,Tiger and most of the great ballstrikers.Open hips and shoulders at impact.You can't get that look without walloping the ball with your pivot.

Nothing wrong with hands controlled pivot but I believe pivot controlled hands is superior.
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BG is also a "hitter". I, myself think hitters are more hands controlled and swingers are more pivot controlled. I disagree with your "armsy and handy" comments about BG. AND HOGAN. Hogan had a HUGE pivot and was a swinger, IMO. We can always debate. but it really doesnt matter, just find YOUR pivot, and YOUR swing.

But the BOOK also teaches pivot controlled hands. My teacher from way back when (gsed) always told me "when the time comes and you make a swing with NO HANDS involved, you will hit it more pure than you ever have", I know in MY game he is right.

We can always debate the 2 schools of thought, even the book says "the hands are not educated until they are controlled BY the pivot."
but of course they can also CONTROL the pivot.

I am not wanting to argue at all about this. It just really depends on the person preforming the swing. Past that, components in TGM is more widely debated more than the Holy Bible itself.
 
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Zztop

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It's not one or the other. Some people feel its pivot controlled, others hand controlled, but in reality they need to work in concert with each other and you need both. Typical chicken or the egg first argument.
 
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ej20

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needham said:
BG is also a "hitter". I, myself think hitters are more hands controlled and swingers are more pivot controlled. I disagree with your "armsy and handy" comments about BG. AND HOGAN. Hogan had a HUGE pivot and was a swinger, IMO. We can always debate. but it really doesnt matter, just find YOUR pivot, and YOUR swing.

But the BOOK also teaches pivot controlled hands. My teacher from way back when (gsed) always told me "when the time comes and you make a swing with NO HANDS involved, you will hit it more pure than you ever have", I know in MY game he is right.

We can always debate the 2 schools of thought, even the book says "the hands are not educated until they are controlled BY the pivot."
but of course they can also CONTROL the pivot.

I am not wanting to argue at all about this. It just really depends on the person preforming the swing. Past that, components in TGM is more widely debated more than the Holy Bible itself.
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Yes,there is a lot of debate between the 2 schools of thought.That is why I have tried to look at finding a more objective viewpoint by way of physical evidence in the 2 styles.Are there any visible differences?

I look at a lot of TGM influenced swings and I see a lot more square hips/square shoulders at impact than open hips/open shoulders.They just have that different look at impact compared to great players.A very non dynamic impact position.You could swear Brian Gay at impact looks precisely like he did at address from the DTL view.Now hands controlled pivot is more widely taught by TGM instructors.Is there a correlation?

If you look at most great players,they have wide open hips and shoulders at impact and they look like they are walloping the ball.Very dynamic.

I believe that in a HCP swing,the hands are driving to an aiming point.In a PCH swing,the pivot is driving to an aiming point.
 
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puttmad

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Guys, I want to ask you something......

If you take one of the closest actions to the golf swing, throwing...what controls what?....

If I remember right from my throwing days, all of my concentration was on my right arm (or hand, if oyu like)...the rest my body fell in with the intention of my hand.....

All of what I do with the golf swing is to maximise the reaction of my body to the intent of my hand(s), mainly the right... so working on my pivot, for example, is mainly to perfect the quickness needed to keep up with the nearly unlimited capability (and intention) of my right hand...

So what does everyone else work towards....:D
 
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needham

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puttmad said:
Guys, I want to ask you something......



So what does everyone else work towards....:D
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I work on turning into my right side, via the ball of my right foot. Being the ball of my right foot is where I feel the pressure. I do not want the "pressure" to FEEL like it has left the right foot until after/right at impact.

on the downswing, I work on seperating my knees into a store/sqaut postion so when I am turning through the ball I can really blast all my power into and ONTO my left leg, via the left hip socket. If I do this, my left side "pulls" me into a nice balanced high finish. all the while, my hands are very quite until half way down, I feel that if I can get into my store/squat I can "go at the ball" as hard as I want to and I have total control over everthing.

Of course this is what I feel, and I am sure the mechanics are actually a little differnt.
I hope any of the above makes 1 ounce of sence.
 
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ej20

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puttmad said:
Guys, I want to ask you something......

If you take one of the closest actions to the golf swing, throwing...what controls what?....

If I remember right from my throwing days, all of my concentration was on my right arm (or hand, if oyu like)...the rest my body fell in with the intention of my hand.....

All of what I do with the golf swing is to maximise the reaction of my body to the intent of my hand(s), mainly the right... so working on my pivot, for example, is mainly to perfect the quickness needed to keep up with the nearly unlimited capability (and intention) of my right hand...

So what does everyone else work towards....:D
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What you feel like you are doing and what your swing looks like can be entirely different.Most hands controlled pivot guys believe they have enough pivot but don't get the open hip/shoulder look of the great players.

The best example of open hips/open shoulder impact postion I can think of is Hunter Mahan.Compare his impact position from DTL with Brian Gay.Day and night difference.

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ej20

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