OK, so how did Hogan do it (his "Secret")?

[jeffy]

Brian mentioned in both Hogan audios (as well as in other threads) that, in his opinion, Hogan's "Secret" was going from a slight cup of the left wrist at the top to a slightly arched left wrist shortly after impact. In fact, this move was more dramatic than it sounds because, it has been said, in addition to the slight cup and "Manzella" neutral grip, Hogan's clubface was set open about 5* on ALL shots (straight, fade and draw; see Jody Vasquez's "Afternoons with Mr. Hogan"). What did Hogan do in his swing to make this dramatic "open-to-square" clubface happen? Was it keeping the right arm bent for so long?

 

[MizunoJoe]

"What did Hogan do in his swing to make this dramatic "open-to-square" clubface happen?"

His clubface went from closed to open. He did it by raising his left wristbone from release to separation. In other words, he made his left wristbone "outrun" his left hand.

 

[jeffy]

quote:Originally posted by MizunoJoe


His clubface went from closed to open.

I'm sorry, I can't make sense of your answer. When did he close the clubface before impact? It started out 5* open at address, rotated further open with slight cup at the top, winds up square at impact...are you saying in between the top and impact he went open-to-closed-to-square? Also, when I arch my left wrist (by bending the right wrist back), it delofts and shuts the clubface, I don't see arching as opening the clubface...Is "raising the wristbone" different from arching the wrist?

And anyway, I know pretty much what he did (Brian explained it well), I asked HOW DID HE DO IT?

 

[drewitgolf]

"My left arm swung right accross my chest on the backswing, and was the strongest part of my downswing. It's almost impossible to get your body out of position and come back to the ball badly. The idea is to rotate the club with your left arm. Poor players and even some tour players try to do it with the right arm. You have to do it with the left arm!"

"I rolled the face of the club open away from the ball. That cupped my left wrist. Comming down, the face was moving so fast, I couldn't turn it over and hook it. I was rotating the club like a baseball bat, and the faster I could rotate it, the more distance I got. Training myself, I would roll the face open as fast and as far as I could. with this technique, I could hit the ball straight and farther."

-Ben Hogan, May 1985

 

[MizunoJoe]

Sorry, but arching the left wrist OPENS the face. When Hogan "fanned" the face he was putting it on the plane - standard wrist action. Look at the photos - at the top, the face is closed with the cupped(bent) left wrist. Moving from cupped to arched is moving from closed to open.

Set up address, now without moving the hands or rolling the arms, arch the left wrist - see the face open? Now at address, bend the left wrist - see the face close?

 

[jeffy]

quote:Originally posted by MizunoJoe

Sorry, but arching the left wrist OPENS the face. When Hogan "fanned" the face he was putting it on the plane - standard wrist action. Look at the photos - at the top, the face is closed with the cupped(bent) left wrist. Moving from cupped to arched is moving from closed to open.

Set up address, now without moving the hands or rolling the arms, arch the left wrist - see the face open? Now at address, bend the left wrist - see the face close?

OK, he went from cupped (bent) to arched: I KNOW THAT! For the third time: what moves in his swing made that happen?

 

[MizunoJoe]

He performs an arching motion from release to separation. It's a wrist manipulation.

 

[tongzilla]

Bending and Arching of the Wrists is strictly a Horizontal movement and does not affect Clubface Alignment. All other things the same, Arching the Left Wrist at Impact will deloft the Clubface (Homer called it a 'hooding' motion), without making it Square, Open or Closed. True Clubface control comes from Hinge Action.

Physics says the a Hook spin is imparted when there is over roll of the Clubface during Impact Interval. So when Hogan went from a wild hooker to a straight hitter / gentle fader, he did something (now we can debate till the cows come home what that is) to decrease this over rolling.

To answer Jeffy's question, I believe there is no magic move that made his left wrist go from slightly bent to flat. Just good honest hard work in educating the hands and letting CF do its work. One thing's for sure though: he did not consiously try to manipulate it to go from bent to flat during release. No way! Not with the kind of Snap Release he is employing.

 

[cdog]

"Set up address, now without moving the hands or rolling the arms, arch the left wrist - see the face open? Now at address, bend the left wrist - see the face close?"

I tried this,when i arched my clubface hooded, but stayed square, when i bent my wrist, it layed back.


Depending on grip strength, and given a completely relaxed lead wrist, If i am accelerating the hands without stopping, my lead wrist is arched, the pressure on PP#1, plus the weight of a lagging clubhead arches the lead wrist.
But as far as if Hogan let this happen, or if he did it on purpose, how can anyone really know unless he told them thats what he did??

 

[MizunoJoe]

Arched is a condition and arching is a motion. If you set up at address using a neutral grip and put the left wrist in an arched condition, the face will be "effectively" open with respect to the ball on the plane of motion that the clubhead traveled. If you freeze that arched condition and swing the hands past the ball, the face will hit the inside aft quadrant, which proves the face was open. You can also do the bending version of the above exercise - you'll hit the outside of the ball(leakage hook).

 

[rundmc]

quote:Originally posted by tongzilla

Bending and Arching of the Wrists is strictly a Horizontal movement and does not affect Clubface Alignment. All other things the same, Arching the Left Wrist at Impact will deloft the Clubface (Homer called it a 'hooding' motion), without making it Square, Open or Closed. True Clubface control comes from Hinge Action.

Physics says the a Hook spin is imparted when there is over roll of the Clubface during Impact Interval. So when Hogan went from a wild hooker to a straight hitter / gentle fader, he did something (now we can debate till the cows come home what that is) to decrease this over rolling.

To answer Jeffy's question, I believe there is no magic move that made his left wrist go from slightly bent to flat. Just good honest hard work in educating the hands and letting CF do its work. One thing's for sure though: he did not consiously try to manipulate it to go from bent to flat during release. No way! Not with the kind of Snap Release he is employing.

I think this may be the best analysis of the "secret" that I have read. I'm with you 100%.

 

[MizunoJoe]

"without moving the hands or rolling the arms"

I meant to originally say "without moving or rolling the arms".

 

[MizunoJoe]

"One thing's for sure though: he did not consiously try to manipulate it to go from bent to flat during release. No way! Not with the kind of Snap Release he is employing."

He goes from bent to ARCHED through release FOR SURE. He's a manipulator!

 

[tongzilla]

quote:Originally posted by MizunoJoe

"One thing's for sure though: he did not consiously try to manipulate it to go from bent to flat during release. No way! Not with the kind of Snap Release he is employing."

He goes from bent to ARCHED through release FOR SURE. He's a manipulator!

He has educated his hands to do that so he does not have to make any consious manipulation during release. There is just no way you can use any muscular manipulation with the sharp arc of a snap release, where fast twitch fibers play a role in the last part of the kenetic chain. Fast twitch muscles are reactionary in the sense that you can't really control the actual movement like with slow twitch fibers.

 

[ThomGN]

I'm with MizunoJoe on this one. Sure arched is open and bent is closed. Everytime I have throwaway I'll hit it left with that bent left wrist.

 

[tongzilla]

Turned is Open and Rolled Closed. Not just semantics, there is a differece. Don't confuse Horizontal motions with Rotational motions of the wrists.

 

[birdie_man]

I have to agree.

I think Turning or Arching opens it....Rolling or Bending closes it.

Not sure of the exact meaning of "Open/Close" and if they're defined in TGM.....but either way Arching points the clubface to right field.....vice versa for Bending.

.....Arching and Bending does deloft/add loft too tho....like Tong said.

 

[billmckinneygolf]

Tongzilla is right on about this. It is very possible to hit a horrible slice
with a bent wrist and to hook with an arched wrist. Ooo, that would be ugly.

 

[Steve Khatib]

Ben Doyle says you can only varify a grip at impact. When he asked Jimmy Ballard about his clubface position at the top at the summit Ballard had it wrong and it was so funny to see them in debate aboutb it. This is why impact fix is so important to varify in the adress routine.

 

[MizunoJoe]

quote:Originally posted by billmckinneygolf

Tongzilla is right on about this. It is very possible to hit a horrible slice
with a bent wrist and to hook with an arched wrist. Ooo, that would be ugly.

Explain how you could hit the inside of the ball with a bent left wrist. []

Yes, you can draw the ball with an arched left wrist which applies an open clubface at impact and closes to square at separation. An arched left makes it easy to get to the inside corner.