Opening the centrifugal debate again....

[Mathew]

I think to reopen this debate I would first define what centrifugal force is.....

dictionary.com defines this as 'Moving or directed away from a center or axis'

I want to do this by looking at a lil understood newtonian fact is 'every reaction has an equal and opposite reaction'. So lets first define this since I've heard this many a time yet not understood it....

Look at the angler here - she's throwing the rod forward in one direction and the other end of the club goes equally back in the other... now this is true of any direction you wish to put it in(anywhere in 3d motion).... force applied to an object will result in an equal force in its opposite end.

The more flexable the instrument the more it will bend back....now if you think about it - why is an object heavier in motion than in non motion ? - because of the other force....

So what this means - yes it actually does exist in terms of an axis - if you pull the end of the shaft (centripetal), you will get a push outwards(centrifugal) trying to straighten the shaft...

What you guys think ?

 

[MizunoJoe]

The angler is using a Hitting motion and is not using centrifugal force. She is pushing on the rod with her right hand. On the other hand, the lure and line are moved by CF effected by the flexing rod.

CF is realized in the golf Swing by pulling the shaft longitudinally. In this case the clubhead and shaft are analogous to the lure and line, and #2 PP is the tip of the rod. For Hitting, the club is analogous to the rod.

 

[Ringer]

Centrifugal is continually labled a "fictitious" force. It really doesn't exist according to many physicists. Because of that, one could even say centrifugal force cannot possibly do anything with the clubhead or clubface.

To address the idea that the force is trying to straighten the shaft can be argued as incorrect.. it is not CF that straightens the shaft, but rather the fact that accelleration has been reduced to a negligable level as to cause the shaft to flex... also known as load. It goes something like this..

Neil Armstrong felt great pressure to the back of the seat in the shuttle during launch. But once he and the shuttle were traveling at a constant speed, Neil would experience no more forces on his body to keep him pinned to the seat.... thus the (poorly) named 0 Gravity phenomina. The same is true when you are in a car. If you closed your eyes at 60 mph, you would not know that you are even moving. Until the driver presses on the accellerator or brakes, you would not have any overwhelming forces to indicate motion.

The same is also true for the shaft in your clubs. It is the point where the club is no longer accellerating at a rate that loads the shaft, it will straighten... having nothing to do with CF.

 

[Mathew]

quote:Originally posted by MizunoJoe

The angler is using a Hitting motion and is not using centrifugal force. She is pushing on the rod with her right hand. On the other hand, the lure and line are moved by CF effected by the flexing rod.

CF is realized in the golf Swing by pulling the shaft longitudinally. In this case the clubhead and shaft are analogous to the lure and line, and #2 PP is the tip of the rod. For Hitting, the club is analogous to the rod.

What I was refering to was the effect of one direction causes force in the other direction.... this can happen on any part of the 3 dimensional force to get the counteracting force....

 

[Mathew]

quote:Originally posted by Ringer

The same is true when you are in a car. If you closed your eyes at 60 mph, you would not know that you are even moving. Until the driver presses on the accellerator or brakes, you would not have any overwhelming forces to indicate motion.

This idea isn't entirely accurate - IMO

This puts the idea that the counteractive force in any direction will disapate after the initial accelaration....

If the angler in the picture had infinitly long arms and could keep pushing at a constant speed - the rod would still bend backwards

 

[njmp2]

Many things don't exist on paper but do in a practical sense. The same principal that wants to throw you off a roller coaster is the same force squaring up the clubface of a golf swing. Now what shall we call that? Centrifugal force works for me.

Ringer, which shuttle mission was Neil Armstrong on????? If you can't put togther simply facts, then.....

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

The world is flat too

 

[Burner]

The physical"force" is Centripetal and the "equal and opposite reaction" is the Centrifugal phenomenon; or fictitious force if you like.

 

[Ringer]

quote:Originally posted by Mathew

quote:Originally posted by Ringer

The same is true when you are in a car. If you closed your eyes at 60 mph, you would not know that you are even moving. Until the driver presses on the accellerator or brakes, you would not have any overwhelming forces to indicate motion.

This idea isn't entirely accurate - IMO

This puts the idea that the counteractive force in any direction will disapate after the initial accelaration....

If the angler in the picture had infinitly long arms and could keep pushing at a constant speed - the rod would still bend backwards

If you were indeed "pushing" on it, you would be exerting force.. but if your arm and the fishing pole have reached the same speed then you would not be adding any "push" to it at all.. your arm would be more or less along for the ride. The initial push is accelleration, but if you do not continue to accellerate then the shaft of the fishing pole would indeed straighten out. Trust me on this, it's simple physics.

 

[Ringer]

quote:Originally posted by njmp2

Many things don't exist on paper but do in a practical sense. The same principal that wants to throw you off a roller coaster is the same force squaring up the clubface of a golf swing. Now what shall we call that? Centrifugal force works for me.

Ringer, which shuttle mission was Neil Armstrong on????? If you can't put togther simply facts, then.....

You call it centripital force. On a roller coaster you are moving in a particular direction, the coasters car is making a loop that is continally redirecting your momentum thus giving you the impression that you are being "pressed" to the floor.. but in fact it is the cart that is pushing you.

Well the mission was Apollo 11 launced with a Saturn V rocket and a Lunar Module near the nose of the rocket.

Any more insults on my intillect you wish to express?

 

[efnef]

What's an intillect? (Written in jest, Ringer-- insert 10,000 smiley faces here to keep it light).

 

[wally888]

I think he mis-spelled, was speaking of me, meant to type untellect.

 

[efnef]

quote:Originally posted by wally888

I think he mis-spelled, was speaking of me, meant to type untellect.

Que?

 

[njmp2]

quote:Originally posted by Ringer

quote:Originally posted by njmp2

Many things don't exist on paper but do in a practical sense. The same principal that wants to throw you off a roller coaster is the same force squaring up the clubface of a golf swing. Now what shall we call that? Centrifugal force works for me.

Ringer, which shuttle mission was Neil Armstrong on????? If you can't put togther simply facts, then.....

You call it centripital force. On a roller coaster you are moving in a particular direction, the coasters car is making a loop that is continally redirecting your momentum thus giving you the impression that you are being "pressed" to the floor.. but in fact it is the cart that is pushing you.

Well the mission was Apollo 11 launced with a Saturn V rocket and a Lunar Module near the nose of the rocket.

Any more insults on my intillect you wish to express?

Sure. Plenty !
First which shuttle mission did Neil Armstrong fly on? Answer is: NONE. Apollo 11 was not a shuttle mission. Shuttle missions are labs in low orbit around the earth. Its little things about your intEllect that make me p.

Second, we are talking about the force that throws objects AWAY from the center, not push into the center like centripetal force. Maybe we should call centrifugal force, non-centripal force since the clubhead lacks any inward force. It doesn’t fly in a straight line (remember the clubhead is the only thing that travels in a circle, arc, un-straight line, Steve) because it is attached to a shaft. It is whirling in an arc away from the center. I though laTorre was big on this. Maybe your concept of a circle is erroneous, requires a straight radius or something to elucidate the concept of outward. Just a thought.

Third, we live in a REAL world, not outer space or inside a computer. Real life forces are at issue. Ball on string, roller coaster, clubhead attached to a shaft on Earth.

Did you know Armstrong back in the mid 50's was an earlier pioneer in SHUTTLE craft operation. Yes, Steve. He was a test pilot for the famous X-15 which became the space shuttle. It was but on the back burner as a viable space craft when the Soviets launch a rocket into sapce and scared the daylights out of us. After the moon, the military demanded the shuttle to be larger. So we in fact go into space with 1950 style space craft.

 

[Ringer]

Oh really.. so what DO you call Apollo 11? Wow.. if ever there was a silly thing to latch onto it would be whether or not you call it a shuttle.

Fine.. I appologize that SHUTTLE is a lable given to those (dumbed down phrasing engaged) big black and white thingies attached to those rocket things... which didn't start appearing until 1981. Do you feel better now that you have successfully attacked my verbage? Wow I bet that makes me soooo stupid when it comes to golf because I don't lable a space mission correctly. Good thing I don't try to set my VCR clock since I don't have experience building bicycles.

There is NO FORCE going OUTWARD. It is redirection of momentum... and the grip ALSO goes in a circular arc... just as the spokes of a wheel are moving circularly around an axis. In fact, the grip resembles a circle more so than the clubhead. Here, I'll even give you a reference about Centrifugal force so that everyone can see just how silly you are, and how absolutely infallible I am..
http://reference.allrefer.com/encyclopedia/C/centripe.html

 

[Ringer]

quote:Originally posted by efnef

What's an intillect? (Written in jest, Ringer-- insert 10,000 smiley faces here to keep it light).

HOW DARE you point out a mistake in an overtly humorous way! Don't you know this forum is about degrading people for their mistakes?

 

[efnef]

quote:Originally posted by Ringer

quote:Originally posted by efnef

What's an intillect? (Written in jest, Ringer-- insert 10,000 smiley faces here to keep it light).

HOW DARE you point out a mistake in an overtly humorous way! Don't you know this forum is about degrading people for their mistakes?

Sigh, yes Steve, I know... I know... I forgot. Next time, I'll be very rude and insulting. I promise. Ooooh... damn! I used a winky eye. I hate winky eyes! Now you've really got me revved up!

 

[njmp2]

quote:Originally posted by Ringer

Oh really.. so what DO you call Apollo 11? Wow.. if ever there was a silly thing to latch onto it would be whether or not you call it a shuttle.

Fine.. I appologize that SHUTTLE is a lable given to those (dumbed down phrasing engaged) big black and white thingies attached to those rocket things... which didn't start appearing until 1981. Do you feel better now that you have successfully attacked my verbage? Wow I bet that makes me soooo stupid when it comes to golf because I don't lable a space mission correctly. Good thing I don't try to set my VCR clock since I don't have experience building bicycles.

There is NO FORCE going OUTWARD. It is redirection of momentum... and the grip ALSO goes in a circular arc... just as the spokes of a wheel are moving circularly around an axis. In fact, the grip resembles a circle more so than the clubhead. Here, I'll even give you a reference about Centrifugal force so that everyone can see just how silly you are, and how absolutely infallible I am..
http://reference.allrefer.com/encyclopedia/C/centripe.html

Simply put, it is important in life to be correct. Apollo is not a shuttle mission, and yes I was succesful in my attack because you were wrong.
Please keep your urls, I know my physics, I know the debate. In real life, in a real swing, their is an outward force. Call it what you want. Steve, you are the farthest thing from a genius, more a internet url clicker.
The grip moves more in straight lines then the clubhead which only moves in an arc. At least in the real world, Steve. Which world or planet do you live on?
So you disagree with you "friend" laTorre about a lot of things.

 

[Ringer]

So ignore facts that I give you, but expect me to capitulate to your conjecture. For someone who says "..it is important in life to be correct.", you sure are hypocritical when correctness flies in the face of your conjecture.

I don't recall saying I'm a genius anywhere and I challenge you to show me in any place where I have stated as such. Indeed I do not know much of anything, and as you get older you'll understand. The more you learn, the less you know. Problems arise when you no longer seek to learn but merely argue.

Yes, there are quite a few things with which I disagree with Manuel about but I do not discount it in the least. I take what I can from everyone who has something knowlegable to say about golf.

Onward to the debate...

Since you do not wish to look at the information I provided, I will display it here so that everyone can clearly see the point I am making.

According to Newton's first law of motion, a moving body travels along a straight path with constant speed (i.e., has constant velocity) unless it is acted on by an outside force. For circular motion to occur there must be a constant force acting on a body, pushing it toward the center of the circular path. This force is the centripetal ("center-seeking") force.

Say for example, you are twirling a string with a rock at the end. What happens when you let go of the string? Does the rock continue to fly in a circle? No, it travels straight until gravity overcomes the forward momentum. But the underlying principle is that all force is applied linearally (that is in straight lines). When the centripital force pulls inward it is putting the object in a constant state of redirection. When the centripital force is lost, then the object will continue in a straight line.

The continual change in direction "feels" like a force pushing outward from the center, but in fact it is not. It is attempting to travel in a straight line but the inward pull forces it's momentum to be redirected.

This is physics. No matter what your perception is of physics, there are several physicists that will quite clearly illustrate precicely what I just mentioned above. Whether you decide to turn a blind eye yet again to it is of no conciquence to the fact that it is true. The image of an ostrich with it's head in the sand comes to mind.

quote:The grip moves more in straight lines then the clubhead which only moves in an arc.

The grip hardly moves in a straight line. I challenge you to show me any instance of a "straight" movement of the grip.

The "Swing" is the hands, and arms while the body is the support structure and axis. The club is merely the object being swung by the arms and hands. It is not an active participant in the motion of the swing itself. (Again to redirect the conversation back to the original point) That means the club is only reactive to the arc the hands swing along. The closer you get to the hands, the closer the movement will appear to travel circularly... although the clubhead DOES travel in an arc, it is not as similiar to a circle as the grip.

 

[njmp2]

I called you genius because you referred to yourself as “absolutely infallible” the same time you called me silly. Silly me for even thinking that.

I’m so glad you know how to cut and paste Ringer. Cut and paste and clicking urls does not make a golf pro an intEllect.

I know Newton very well. Ringer, what college did you attend or graduate from? You do miss some key points from sloppy reading. Before I go any further, I said the hands move in a straighter line then the clubhead. The clubhead moves in an orbit. The hands move more in a straight line path to the ball. The key to the passage was interpreting the comparison relationship. More, more than, "er" that kind of thing. Each word has a meaning in the sentence. (Thou shall not kill, doesn’t make allowances for murder. )

Do you know why centrifugal force is called a fictitious force by physicists? Do they call it that because it doesn't exist? No. It is call a fictitious force because it isn't a true force. A true force is one that exists on its own, like gravity or electromagnetism.
Centrifugal force exists only where? In a rotating system. The golf swing is a rotating system. If the golf swing is a rotating system and centrifugal force exists in a rotating system then centrifugal force is real. Everyone get that??? Centrifugal Force is ever present in a rotating system.