Overbaking the soft draw

[Tball88]

I'm having a slight problem with the soft draw pattern. Now don't get me wrong this is my current preferred pattern and I shot a 36 on my own ball in a best ball 9 using this pattern this weekend, so I love it when I have it cooking.

However, occasionally, I'm getting what I would refer to as a straight face pull. I'm slightly closed at the top and I'll start to roll my left arm a little early and at impact the face is closed and the ball goes left.

I'm playing this pattern pretty well the majority of the time, I just have to really watch how much roll I employ with the left arm.

Anybody else struggle with this, and if so how did you resolve, open face at setup, grip, etc.?

Thanks

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Feel like your thumb is more under the shaft at the top of your backswing...change nothing else.

 

[Kevin Shields]

More effective counter fall and deeper javelin position

 

[Deadly_Scope]

I'm having a slight problem with the soft draw pattern. Now don't get me wrong this is my current preferred pattern and I shot a 36 on my own ball in a best ball 9 using this pattern this weekend, so I love it when I have it cooking.

However, occasionally, I'm getting what I would refer to as a straight face pull. I'm slightly closed at the top and I'll start to roll my left arm a little early and at impact the face is closed and the ball goes left.

I'm playing this pattern pretty well the majority of the time, I just have to really watch how much roll I employ with the left arm.

Anybody else struggle with this, and if so how did you resolve, open face at setup, grip, etc.?

Thanks

Why not just set the clubface square relative to the hand position you have chosen to attain at impact relative to the plane which the club is traveling on and have a ball position somewhat back more than you would do if you were going to cut the ball then program yourself at the top to just think about the predesignated position of the left hand at impact. If you did this for long enough eventually this procedure will become second nature and you start to do it without realising it...

 

[Brian Manzella]

Why not just set the clubface square relative to the hand position you have chosen to attain at impact relative to the plane which the club is traveling on and have a ball position somewhat back more than you would do if you were going to cut the ball then program yourself at the top to just think about the predesignated position of the left hand at impact. If you did this for long enough eventually this procedure will become second nature and you start to do it without realising it...

I like the clubface positioning at the top adjustment in this case, just like Jim said (using other words).

But, the ball ball here would destroy the D-Plane.

 

[Deadly_Scope]

I like the clubface positioning at the top adjustment in this case, just like Jim said (using other words).

But, the ball ball here would destroy the D-Plane.

The D plane could be a useful piece of understanding but what Im trying to do is get the clubface for this guy into a constant position at impact. It doesn't matter what shot shape you use - a consistant procedure brings stability to the average result and players unless they are not thinking correctly, can then aim the average result.

Golf is alot more about memorised shots and allowing for their tendencies than creating them on the fly through conceptual practices.

 

[niblick1]

Ok, Brian (and other excellent teachers) have weighed in, so my comments may be a bit beside the point, but the problem of hitting occasional pulls and pull hooks was the last thing i figured out about my own use of the soft draw pattern. I just really had a problem learning to keep my face slightly open to hit a draw - I was just dying to steer the ball at the target.

What really helped me were three things - first, learning to play the soft draw with an even stronger grip than I had (not more neutral) gave me control and a sense of just what a few degrees open meant at impact (i might even try exaggerating the strong grip just to see what a few degrees open at impact feels like with a pretty strong grip); second, focusing on the thumb under the club at the top as Jim/Brian have said helped; third, Brian says "pull like crazy" on downswing then toss - I was applying a push too early, and the better my pull early in the downswing, the less a pull is likely, for me at least.

 

[Matt 4-L]

Tball...When you say "the ball is going left" is it a straight ball pulled left of target or starting on target hooking left?

I struggle with an over cooked draw and by now REALLY understanding what the d-plane is all about (thanks Brian) has made a gigantic difference. I USED to think my swing path was coming over the top a bit that caused it and would try to swing more out to right field and that would really screw me up. All I needed to do was open my face a little to the target line but slightly closed to my swing path… Through some rough experimenting I have discovered I swing about 3° in to out and I can look at the ball and visualize where my swing path is going to be and when I start to over cook it to much because of what I term "hard" releases I open the face almost to 3° and that allows to me to go "hard" at the ball with no worries. If I want to hit it straight I open my stance about 3° to the target line and square up the face to my swing path. Its actually very simple.

I don't usually give out much advise on here, I usually sit back and absorb the knowledge but knowing how the d-plane works has made such a huge impact on my ability to fix my swing on the very next shot that I thought I would share it.

 

[dannyc]

The D plane could be a useful piece of understanding but what Im trying to do is get the clubface for this guy into a constant position at impact. It doesn't matter what shot shape you use - a consistant procedure brings stability to the average result and players unless they are not thinking correctly, can then aim the average result.

Golf is alot more about memorised shots and allowing for their tendencies than creating them on the fly through conceptual practices.

isn't getting the clubface in a constant position at impact what everyone is trying to attain?

 

[Tball88]

Matt F. and others, It's not an over the top move, It's exactly the problem you stated that if I ever "hard release" or hard roll then it's going hard left. Sometimes I have to feel like I'm holding off rolling the left arm at all to keep from going left. I normally am hitting a draw, but I believe the face is so closed sometimes it appears to be a pull hook.

 

[niblick1]

I struggle with an over cooked draw and by now REALLY understanding what the d-plane is all about (thanks Brian) has made a gigantic difference. I USED to think my swing path was coming over the top a bit that caused it and would try to swing more out to right field and that would really screw me up. All I needed to do was open my face a little to the target line but slightly closed to my swing path… Through some rough experimenting I have discovered I swing about 3° in to out and I can look at the ball and visualize where my swing path is going to be and when I start to over cook it to much because of what I term "hard" releases I open the face almost to 3° and that allows to me to go "hard" at the ball with no worries.

Those were exactly my set of issues. I thought for 9-10 months that I had a swingpath issue and what I actually needed to learn to hit with the slightly open face slightly closed to path. You could literally play golf your entire life and never figure this out, but then when you figure it out - boom, you have made a huge leap that allows immediate improvement.

I also think my grip was slightly weak and moving to a stronger grip actually helped do this. Then exaggerating the grip to maybe a little bit too strong grip gave me an even better sense what what that path/face combination needed to be and more control to see what it is like, then I moved back to the SD grip Brian recommends - I'm still experimenting some with the even stronger grip.

Once I figured out the feel of slightly open to target line/slightly closed to clubpath I could really hit the ball much harder without worrying about "left."

 

[Deadly_Scope]

isn't getting the clubface in a constant position at impact what everyone is trying to attain?

Sure they are looking for consistant clubface control but hardly anyone seems to know how to do it, or play and aim the shot that the procedure produces. Its about how closely you can group the balls together and not about how many you can get to land exactly on the target line aiming everything perfectly parallel in some over-idealistic idiocy.

 

[Tball88]

Ok, went back to the range today to work on some of your recommendations and it appears to have gone back to something Brian worked on with me last year in Atlanta. I took my normal grip and then held the club out in front of me and placed my wrist flat to see if the clubface matched, what I discovered was a very shut face. I had to severely weaken my grip in order to get a flat left wrist and the club face matched up, but immediately saw better results.

I'll keep working on it, it feels really strange, because I now feel like the grip is super weak.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Ok, went back to the range today to work on some of your recommendations and it appears to have gone back to something Brian worked on with me last year in Atlanta. I took my normal grip and then held the club out in front of me and placed my wrist flat to see if the clubface matched, what I discovered was a very shut face. I had to severely weaken my grip in order to get a flat left wrist and the club face matched up, but immediately saw better results.

I'll keep working on it, it feels really strange, because I now feel like the grip is super weak.

Basically you have two options:

1) Keep the stronger grip and swing more left and aim further right
2) Weaken the grip and don't change anything

 

[Matt 4-L]

I used to play a strong grip but have moved to a neutral grip. For the longest time the face would "sneak" shut on me as I waggled and regripped the club at address or I would close/tilt my shoulders to make the face look slightly open at address which really messes with your swing when things get out of line. The bottom line is if it is hooking left and you have a shut face to your path. Keep opening the face until you hit it straight and that will pretty much tell you where your swing path is at too. Good luck.

 

[dannyc]

Sure they are looking for consistant clubface control but hardly anyone seems to know how to do it, or play and aim the shot that the procedure produces.

so how do you do it?

Its about how closely you can group the balls together and not about how many you can get to land exactly on the target line aiming everything perfectly parallel in some over-idealistic idiocy.

i agree about getting the balls in a group and not aspiring to hit a perfect shot 1% of the time.

i guess my point is, you make it sound "easy." is it? how do you achieve consistent and/or perfect impact?

 

[holeout]

so how do you do it?




i agree about getting the balls in a group and not aspiring to hit a perfect shot 1% of the time.

i guess my point is, you make it sound "easy." is it? how do you achieve consistent and/or perfect impact?

What Mathew (DS) is talking about is that most "TGMers" try and have you achieve the "ideal pattern" rather than "grouping the balls closely together." Brian is, thankfully, not in the "ideal pattern" group, unless you're talking about "the ideal pattern for YOU."

 

[Brian Manzella]

You just HAVE TO understand the D-Plane.

If you don't, all flight corrections are a guess at best.

 

[self-mastery]

Why did you stop using your strong grip fade pattern? I remember you mentioning that it worked well for you.

 

[Deadly_Scope]

What Mathew (DS) is talking about is that most "TGMers" try and have you achieve the "ideal pattern" rather than "grouping the balls closely together." Brian is, thankfully, not in the "ideal pattern" group, unless you're talking about "the ideal pattern for YOU."

You are being somewhat disingenious in your reply here.

• You associate me with TGM and yes alot of my preliminary work used TGM as a starting point. However my total understanding has increased through the understanding of movement within a 3d enviroment. Over the last 5 months I have been slowly increasing my understanding of the human skeletal structure and how muscles operate. Does this sound like someone mindlessly following a single book enough to call them a "TGMer"...

• You've basically haven't read a word I have said and/or deliberately distorting my position. I am the one telling people to get a consistant clubface control and a pattern that 'groups balls together', see the results on the range and then offset their alignment from their over idealistic fetish with parallels. I couldn't care less about if someone hits a draw/fade/push/pull provided they can group the balls together.

Now, I do have ideals in mind when I talk about the golf stroke as there definately are mechanical advantages to be had. I think anyone in their right mind that knows anything about golf whatsoever could tell you that controlling the clubface at impact is of paramount importance. I couldn't even begin to scratch the surface of this topic. If I was to write a chapter in a book on clubface control it would be a long one...

The strange thing is you critique a book and I don't want to come off as condescending - that your simply not in a position to critique as your comment here is testimont to that fact as it could easily be refuted by a 'TGMer' by quoting parts of ch2 and ch3. It does have its errors... some intentional, some not...