Path/face influence with different clubs

[James Marshall (Hogan1953)]

I may have missed this but exactly why is it that with the less lofted clubs the face has a greater influence over the initial direction of the ball than the path than with more lofted clubs?

Is it just because of the loft itself not imparting as much side spin on the ball with the more lofted clubs or greater friction or something else?

Thanks

 

[lookingtolearn]

I may have missed this but exactly why is it that with the less lofted clubs the face has a greater influence over the initial direction of the ball than the path than with more lofted clubs?

Is it just because of the loft itself not imparting as much side spin on the ball with the more lofted clubs or greater friction or something else?

Thanks

 

[cwdlaw223]

Please note that a ball can only spin around one axis. There is no such thing as sidespin on a golf ball. Only backspin (or topsin) and axis tilt. The lower the loft the easier it is to tilt the axis.

Driver = easy to tilt axis and curve
SW = hard to tilt axis and curve

 

[dbl]

What is the OP's question...that low lofted clubs initial direction is (I forget the numbers) like 85% due to the face versus 70% of the face for high-lofted clubs...and what causes that variance?

 

[Ringer]

Please note that a ball can only spin around one axis. There is no such thing as sidespin on a golf ball. Only backspin and axis tilt. The lower the loft the easier it is to tilt the axis.

Driver = easy to tilt axis and curve
SW = hard to tilt axis and curve

I said the same thing two months ago and got lambasted. Hope it doesn't happen to you.

 

[SteveT]

Please note that a ball can only spin around one axis. There is no such thing as sidespin on a golf ball. Only backspin and axis tilt. The lower the loft the easier it is to tilt the axis.

Driver = easy to tilt axis and curve
SW = hard to tilt axis and curve

Re Driver: What causes the axis to seemingly tilt more and more when the ball slices badly? It seems like the ball path gets worse and worse the farther out on the slice drive. Or is the axis tilt constant from impact to landing for vicious slices? Perhaps the effect of the axis tilt is different for an ascending trajectory and a descending trajectory. Just asking ....

 

[cwdlaw223]

Great question and I wouldn't be surprised if a Trackman II comes out that measures the ball throughout the entire shot.

Stay strong Ringer!!! Your video on the D plane was very good as well and demonstrated the logic behind the fallacy of a ball spinning on two different axis. Can't happen!!!! If someone wants to define sidespin as severe axis tilt with backspin (or topspin) then there really isn't a debate.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

I said the same thing two months ago and got lambasted. Hope it doesn't happen to you.

By whom? I said the exact same thing in a thread.

 

[SteveT]

Sometimes I suspect that the 'D-plane' is just a misrepresentation of Force Vector Resolution.

 

[softconsult]

"It seems like the ball path gets worse and worse the farther out on the slice drive."

My layman's answer would be that a slicing ball curves less initially due to ball velocity.
As velocity decreases farther down the trajectory, the slice spin causes the ball to curve more.

 

[Ringer]

By whom? I said the exact same thing in a thread.

No, you were actually killing me about it here arguing in the negative...

One of the interesting phenomenon that we know about the D-Plane (and really it's been partially known for a long time) is that you can curve the ball more with your longer clubs, and very little with the short ones.

We can use this to our advantage.

Practice PATH with long clubs.
Practice FACE with short clubs.

The reason is that the results are more dramatic with each. When you have a sharp draw with your 3 iron, the same swing with a PW would be a push right. The reason is because with a 3 iron the path can make up for the clubface being out of alignment. If you have the face a degree or two open of the target with your 3 iron, you can produce a 5-10 yard draw to bring the ball back to the target simply by swinging a little out to the right.

You cannot make the same path adjustments to hit a 9 iron at your target. The ball simply won't draw 5-10 yards unless you exaggerate the path the the point of almost duck hooking it.

This hopefully will be a light bulb to many of you who have one problem shot with shorter irons and a different problem with longer clubs.

sorry, completely disagree and feel you have it backwards.

the reason its harder to curve short irons has to do with the imparted backspin on the ball from the LOFT, nothing else. You give me a PW with 40* on it and i'll hook it like the 8* it really is.

http://www.brianmanzella.com/forum/...s-tell-us-more-than-you-think.html#post167540

 

[cwdlaw223]

I guess my question is why is it harder to tilt the axis with higher lofted clubs? It seems like everyone agrees its harder to tilt the axis with a higher lofted club than a lower lofted club (of course I could be wrong about everyone agreeing!!!!)

Is it harder to tilt the axis due to the backspin caused by the increased loft of higher lofted clubs?

 

[Ringer]

I guess my question is why is it harder to tilt the axis with higher lofted clubs? It seems like everyone agrees its harder to tilt the axis with a higher lofted club than a lower lofted club (of course I could be wrong about everyone agreeing!!!!)

Is it harder to tilt the axis due to the backspin caused by the increased loft of higher lofted clubs?

Has nothing to do with back or side spin.. it has to do with the dynamic loft angle being much more vertical with wedges than low lofted irons.

Think about it for a second. The balls axis tilt is 90 degrees to the D-Plane. So the more tilted the D-Plane, the more tilted the spin axis. We good so far?

Well if your dynamic loft angle is 45 degree's and your path is -5 degree's, that's a whopping 50 degree difference between path and face angle.

Now take your driver with say dynamic loft of 10 degree's and +2 degree's of path. That's only 8 degree's difference between path and face angle.

So which one is easier to tilt the D-Plane with?

If only 8 degree's difference for the driver, then just 3 degree's open with the face could easily cause a very tilted D-Plane.

But with your wedge at 50 degree difference, open the face up 3 degree's and you've barely budged the D-Plane.

I showed that in my D-Plane video toward the end.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dP26-P7eYH8[/media]

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Ringer, please read below:

Please note that a ball can only spin around one axis. There is no such thing as sidespin on a golf ball. Only backspin and axis tilt. The lower the loft the easier it is to tilt the axis.

Driver = easy to tilt axis and curve
SW = hard to tilt axis and curve

Now read the below:

the reason its harder to curve short irons has to do with the imparted backspin on the ball from the LOFT, nothing else. You give me a PW with 40* on it and i'll hook it like the 8* it really is.

Both cwdlaw and I are saying the same thing = less loft equals less backspin which makes it easier to tilt the axis. So not sure what you are talking about. Now i didn't get into tilt of the ball but i meant the exact same thing.

What i said you are wrong about is that you are claiming the path is the reason for this which it isn't, it's the loft.

 

[Ringer]

Ringer, please read below:



Now read the below:



Both cwdlaw and I are saying the same thing = less loft equals less backspin which makes it easier to tilt the axis. So not sure what you are talking about. Now i didn't get into tilt of the ball but i meant the exact same thing.

What i said you are wrong about is that you are claiming the path is the reason for this which it isn't, it's the loft.

I don't read it that way at all. Your comments suggested spin, his suggested loft.

Furthermore, isn't increased spin an argument that it would cause the ball to curve more? Since higher lofted clubs spin the ball more, are you suggesting then that higher lofted clubs curve the ball more? That's completely the opposite of what I see cwdlaw and I both saying about it being the loft vs. path differential and the tilt of the D-Plane which argues it is easier to curve a ball with lower lofted clubs than higher lofted clubs.

 

[cwdlaw223]

I think that both of you are saying the same thing from different perspectives regarding the affect of axis tilt.

Ringer - increased dynamic loft reduces axis tilt
Jim - backspin reduces axis tilt.

To me, dynamic loft and backspin go hand and glove (but I'm sure there is more to it than my oversimplication).

I'm concerned about the sidespin issue because my idiot brother told me for years that backspin counteracted "sidespin" when he should have said "axis tilt." A ball can only spin on one axis. These were pre-Trackman days and people just filled in the gaps with what they saw or experienced (ex. the earth is flat because the horizon its flat when you look out at the sea!!!!).

 

[SteveT]

I'm confused by all the terminology being flung around .... but shouldn't you be defining ball spin using D-plane concepts rather than trying to interpret TrackMan result data ... as Ringer has done above ...??
..................................................................................................

Addition Edit:

Here's a thought for all you D-planers .... If the clubface 'normal' vector and the clubhead velocity path vector are vertically coincident, then the ball will spin happily with no axis tilt directly to the target. IOW, you can draw the triangular D-plane all the way to the target.

However, if the D-plane is tilted because the 'normal' vector and velocity path vector don't coincide vertically, the D-plane tilts and the spin axis also tilts over in that direction. Then the aerodynamic lift vector takes hold and causes the ball to curve.

In the first example I gave, everything coincided vertically and the ball spin axis was 90º perpendicular to the vertical D-plane .... but ... once you tilt the D-plane and the two vectors are not vertically coincident, then you introduce axis tilt with a spin and the ball curves.

Interestingly, the D-plane only exists to the target if everything coincides vertically ... whether it's straight to the target or a straight push or straight pull shot and the ball spin axis stays perpendicular to the plane (or horizontal to the ground). The ball stays on the D-plane for this case.

If the D-plane vectors diverge and are not coincident and causing an axis tilt, theoretically, the ball immediately starts to curve away from the D-plane. IOW, the D-plane only becomes a benchmark and the ball diverges away from the plane. The spinning tilted axis ball cannot cut across the D-plane. The D-plane only defines the starting point at Impact where the clubface 'normal' and the clubhead path vector are resolved into the initial ball path.

The D-plane is still quite a nebulous concept to most because it requires an appreciation of resolution of vectors. I hope my explanation doesn't further confuse ... but now it is even more clear to me. Now I have to find a TrackMan to see how it captures and represent the data for a spinning ball on a tilted axis.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

I don't read it that way at all. Your comments suggested spin, his suggested loft.

Then you must have missed the giant freakn' word that says LOFT in the previous thread and this one which you actually quoted above! *shaking head*

Furthermore, isn't increased spin an argument that it would cause the ball to curve more? Since higher lofted clubs spin the ball more, are you suggesting then that higher lofted clubs curve the ball more? That's completely the opposite of what I see cwdlaw and I both saying about it being the loft vs. path differential and the tilt of the D-Plane which argues it is easier to curve a ball with lower lofted clubs than higher lofted clubs.

No! For the last time, less loft = less backspin = easier to tilt spin axis which makes ball curve more!!!!

So if more backspin reduces spin axis tilt then less backspin can increase spin axis tilt and what, all things being equal creates less backspin? LESS LOFT like i have already said.

I'm done here.

 

[Ringer]

Jim I am sorry you are getting frustrated, but the part you and I disagree with is that somehow there is sidespin AND backspin. There is only one axis of rotation on the ball and that is where you and I have such a deep divergence of opinion. You're saying backspin is greater than sidespin and that simply is not the case.

You are emphasizing where you say loft is the determinant. I don't disagree with that. What I disagree with is the description you give regarding the spin result and really it was the entire point of the previous thread and my conversation in this one. It is also the very point cwdlaw was making adamantly. There is no "side-spin" and "backspin". There is only one spin around one axis. It can tilt because the D-Plane is tilted but that's it.

 

[cwdlaw223]

Ringer -

I didn't get the impression that Jim was advocating two types of spin simultaneously.