Pattern Questions

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golfman5900

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Hi everyone,
At the end of my last season I played to a 5 cap (thanks to Martin Chuck!!). I had made a lot of progress with the NSA pattern , especially in controlling my flip. The snow is finally melting where I live and the ranges have opened up. I've been out 4 times now, and I have some questions about NSA and about NHA (which I purchased over the winter break).

I gave both patterns a shot today at the range, although I spent about 90% on NSA. I was having some really bad throwaway problems with both patterns, but it seemed to be worse with NHA. Is there a reason why it was worse with NHA? Looking at my NHA swing, it doesn't really look like I envisioned it in my mind....especially the lack of carry/shake the sugar. Despite all the problems, I could hit fades (most of the time) and the extra height on long irons was much appreciated.

My NSA swing looked a little weird too. I didn't have much wrist hinge, and I think I'll have to try to add some the next time I go out (although I've tried that before with pretty bad results lol). Will adding more hinge help with my throwaway/impact position?

My other problem with my NSA swing is the height I hit longer clubs.... it's too low...and they like to go left. I could only carry my 3 iron about 200-205 today (granted it was about 10 deg Celsius and the range balls felt frozen:p) and I would like to carry it longer with less release. This is actually why I tried the NHA swing...which worked great at adding the height to my shots but sometimes it looked to spin the ball too much and I lost distance (ballooning shots).

I know I shouldn't flip flop between patterns, but I'm having a hard time making up my mind which one to go with. I have a tendency to hit it too far left and too low with NSA (which I assume is due to my lack of wrist hinge and my flip), and NHA seemed to help with that issue. Is it worth it to switch to NHA to get added height, or should I just work within NSA? What can I do with NSA to get added height?

What can I do to get rid of my flip? I know the shorter my swing gets, the less I flip....so I try to use a lot of extensor action in my NSA. I don't flip on pitch shots and can punch the ball really well....it's only a full swing flip. Maybe my hips are sliding too much and I have to flip to hit the ball? Should I try to add some "carry" like in NHA?

YouTube - 2011 NSA swing april 21.wmv
YouTube - 2011 NHA swing april 21.wmv

Thanks very much for any advice,
Golfman
 
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dbl

New
In regards the NSA swing..... :shudder: (sorry).

Try doing those elements which come after impact, like hitting the box, wedding ring up and placing the club on the movie screen...with the right wrist still bent. If you can do those thing then impact will be substantially different.

Try harder. Don't let ingrained old techniques take over. Even try without a ball. Get it so you look like Brian demo'ing it.
 
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golfman5900

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Hmmm I know what your saying with the wedding ring up and the movie screen. I've tried it before, and the only shot I can hit is a mega hook/ pull hook... that's why I don't do it anymore. Are those just leakage hooks?

As for "hitting the box"..... easier said than done. I think hitting the box is more of a byproduct of a good swing as opposed to something you can consciously do. I can hit the box no problem on pitch shots (I'll post one today), but I've never been able to on full swings.
 
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ffejeff224

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golfman5900 said:
Hmmm I know what your saying with the wedding ring up and the movie screen. I've tried it before, and the only shot I can hit is a mega hook/ pull hook... that's why I don't do it anymore. Are those just leakage hooks?

As for "hitting the box"..... easier said than done. I think hitting the box is more of a byproduct of a good swing as opposed to something you can consciously do. I can hit the box no problem on pitch shots (I'll post one today), but I've never been able to on full swings.
Click to expand...

You are switching back and forth between NSA and NHA, but the entire post you are talking about how to get rid of your flip. If you want to get rid of the flip I highly recommend COFF. Also you don't say what your general miss is. Do you like to fade it, draw it, do you tend to slice it or hook it? If you are looking for a nice soft draw I would recommend the soft draw pattern, but if you hook it a lot then go with NHA.

As far as hooking the ball by using wedding ring up and hitting the movie screen goes that is what they were meant to do. If someone is struggling with a slice then you get them to mimic this pattern. They will eventually get tired of hitting pull hooks and straighten out their path. Together with backing off of twistaway they can start to hit the ball straight or draw it a little.
 
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golfman5900

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Thanks for the reply! I actually have coff, and i attribute it to helping me be flip free on pitch, punch, and less than full shots. That being said, it never helped my full swing. My flip is my most hated part of my swing... Thats why i tend to focus on it. I guess what I'm asking is what swing is best for getting rid of a flip, NSA or NHA?
My miss is a hook and more rarely a pull hook (with the NSA style swing).
 
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ekennedy

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Plain and simple, you have a path problem. Your swing is too rightward and it forces you to flip it because your body isn't turning left through the shot. You are also working on conflicting patterns. You can't work on twistaway on one swing and carry on the next.

You have to pick a pattern and stick with it. NHA is great, but you have to do all of the pattern, not some of it. Watch the section where Brian talks about swinging Down the Yellow Brick Road, but also where you hips, hands and chest are prior to swinging left. Everything works left.
 
counterfall

counterfall

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I am with ekennedy on this as far as your path being too rightward and you are employing the flip to square it up. There may be too much lateral shift in the downswing to the point that you are sliding a bit too far toward the target and you are still sliding even after impact. Part of the issue may be that you move your hips toward the ball before impact and you finish with a bent left knee. As a result you are constantly increasing your axis tilt until you finish. Axis tilt increases the rightward-ness. Perform the lateral shift in transition as you currently do but try firming up your left side by straightening your left leg (don't snap it, just straighten it). In other words, your backswing and transition seem fine, you may need to work on what Brian refers to as the "Jump".

BTW, Nice Luke Donald style finish.
 
ZAP

ZAP

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+1 on the above. It looks like NHA is a decent place for you to be working towards. Up the wall..........
 
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golfman5900

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Thanks counterfall, that actually explains a lot. I always thought my hip slide was a little excessive but I never thought that it would continually increase my axis tilt, allowing me to swing more and more to the right. Add in the fact that my flip might be an effort to square up the club relative to the excessively rightward path and that one little hip move explains most of my big swing flaws. I guess it also explains why I dip in my swing!

When I try to straighten my leg (the jump) do I start right at transition? I'm sure this will be really weird for me when I try to implement it!

Thanks again!
 
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Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
Your right hand grip is too strong. You are too "on top" of the face in the transition and you keep your right arm too high. So you work under it late to not dig a hole and the strong grip helps you flip/steer the face toward the target. Get rid of the strong right hand or you'll never get rid of your problem. Never. Never, ever, ever.
 
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counterfall

counterfall

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golfman5900 said:
Thanks counterfall, that actually explains a lot. I always thought my hip slide was a little excessive but I never thought that it would continually increase my axis tilt, allowing me to swing more and more to the right. Add in the fact that my flip might be an effort to square up the club relative to the excessively rightward path and that one little hip move explains most of my big swing flaws. I guess it also explains why I dip in my swing!

When I try to straighten my leg (the jump) do I start right at transition? I'm sure this will be really weird for me when I try to implement it!

Thanks again!
Click to expand...

You don't start right at transition. At the very least, it is a gradual straightening and not an instantaneous one. Go to the forum search and type in "Jump" and search in thread titles only. You should get something titled 'Pull back, Run up, and the Jump'. It is basically what Tiger woods was always doing with his legs in the downswing. It functions to add late axis tilt due to the whole left side moving more left during transition than it was at setup. Look up the oldest stuff on Youtube that you can find for Tiger (face-on). He did it better in 1997 than in 2007. He tinkered with it until it ruined his knee.

It is ok to squat down in transition as a result of loading into the left leg but you would do better to leave out the action of the hips pulling toward the ball and the shoulders/ upper back hunching down. You don't stand up as a reaction to this movement whereas most people do to give themselves more room through impact to shallow out the swing ( in order to cancel out this combo of incorrect actions). As a result, you use the flip.

The grip advice is great and may help tame some of the extraneous hand action.
 
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spktho

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Just saw the Ricky Barnes swingvision. A lot of similarities with your action. I agree with Kevin, that you are getting a bit too far forward in the transition. I fight that too and have to feel as if the weight stays on my back foot then get my hands going way forward of my left leg before impact. You will be amazed at how the ball will jump of the club when you fix the flip.
 
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golfman5900

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Hmmm I tried the "jump" today and I think I'm going to have to implement it right at transition for it to do anything. I felt like I was doing it, but looking at the video there's not a significant difference between my left leg straightening with the jump or without the jump. I guess I"ll keep working on it and see if it improves over a week or so.

YouTube - 2011 NSA swing april 24.wmv
 
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Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
spktho said:
Just saw the Ricky Barnes swingvision. A lot of similarities with your action. I agree with Kevin, that you are getting a bit too far forward in the transition. I fight that too and have to feel as if the weight stays on my back foot then get my hands going way forward of my left leg before impact. You will be amazed at how the ball will jump of the club when you fix the flip.
Click to expand...

I missed the part where I said he was too far forward in the transition? Is that what you got from my post?
 
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dbl

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GM,

I'd say those punch shots have flip too.

Look at Manzella just after impact

screenshot014kw.jpg


Now look at you and he at about the same place later after impact:

combo1617.jpg


As a minimum, regardless of any other path and knee issues etc, you would need to keep the right wrist bent and do NOT point the handle at your stomach after impact, at least for little punches.
 
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golfman5900

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Hmmm that's interesting DBL! I've never really noticed it before because I was looking more at impact than after it. Maybe I should go through COFF again and work on some of those drills. Maybe what I though was not a flip feel actually was still a flip.....hmmm this might be harder to fix than I thought!
 
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