Pattern Questions
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Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
Why do you think he has a lateral move with the bowed right side?
I thought that's what you meant about "too on top of the face". I guess I misinterpreted what you were saying? Were you talking about the face being too closed at the transition? Sorry for confusing things.
Is this move to get back "under" or open the face?
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counterfall
New
This is an example of what I meant by the bent left knee. If I am seeing this pic correctly, your lower left leg is angled too much out toward the target. I am suggesting that it should be more vertical from the face-on view. It should appear like your hip, knee, and ankle are close to being lined up vertically. Although, I don't see too much of a flip here. If that was your normal full shot impact it would be fine. Have you ever had a sore left kneecap or outer left knee ligaments?GM,
I'd say those punch shots have flip too.
Look at Manzella just after impact
Now look at you and he at about the same place later after impact:
As a minimum, regardless of any other path and knee issues etc, you would need to keep the right wrist bent and do NOT point the handle at your stomach after impact, at least for little punches.
counterfall
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You may need to 'feel' like you are straightening your leg right after transition in order to execute it successfully. Make sure you read the original forum thread though if you have not already. If you notice the pics in that thread, the left shoulder works up and around along with the Jump so that there is enough room to square the clubface with a straight left arm/ wrist.
Edit: I just looked at impact in this video. It doesn't seem to be a flip at impact. Did you change your grip at all?
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golfman5900
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I do have laxity of my acl, but the other ligaments in my left knee are fine. I did weaken my right hand grip (or at least tried to), and I kept the left hand grip unchanged. I took a look at the original thread and understood the pictures, I think it is just a matter of getting used to the movement.
counterfall
New
You may also do well with trying to keep the right foot flat longer so you are not pushing yourself laterally off of your right foot (I have a habit of doing this with the driver). Brian has a Youtube vid on a flat right foot you may want to check out. Instead of lifting the heel through impact, you could roll to the inside of it as you approach impact. At the end of full swings, the heel should pop straight up if you made a good weight shift in transition. You will have to remind yourself before each shot to attempt to keep the heel down through impact or it will come up. This may help tame the extra lateral move by itself. Give it a try and see what you experience. Rickie Fowler keeps a flat right foot through impact if you want a good visual reference. Tiger did as well in 2009 when he came back from his knee injury (definitely a connection there).
Regarding the ACL laxity, you need to get the rotational torque off of your left knee or you will increase your risk of needing surgery. The ACL is the main stabilizer of the knee joint to rotational forces. However, the knee joint isn't designed to rotate and has limited tolerance for rotational torque, as you have learned. As long as you straighten the left leg (again, don't snap it straight) and don't move your weight too far to the outside of your left foot, the hip joint should take most of the rotational torque (like it is structured to do). Also, you will want to aim at moving your weight more to your left heel so the glutes do more of the stabilizing work. The more weight that ends up on the toes/ ball of your foot, the more the knee is involved in accepting the torque of the rotation.
You can prove this to yourself, by doing squats while standing on the balls of your feet with your heels off of the ground compared to doing squats with your toes curled up off of the ground and the weight more on your heels. You will notice that the emphasis moves from the knee joint (lower thigh muscles) more to the glute muscles.
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counterfall
New
An example of Rickie Fowler: YouTube - Rickie Fowler Golf Swing @ 2010 US PGA (Driver)
2 examples of Tiger Woods: YouTube - Golf: Tiger Wood's perfect golf swing
YouTube - JBWere Masters (his left leg isn't stick-straight at impact but notice the flat right foot)
2 examples of Tiger Woods: YouTube - Golf: Tiger Wood's perfect golf swing
YouTube - JBWere Masters (his left leg isn't stick-straight at impact but notice the flat right foot)
golfman5900
New
I'll give keeping my right foot down a shot. I was out today and was working on the jump, and I can't really seem to get it to work. To top it off my knee is starting to get sore just from hitting a bucket of range balls (which never happens).
I also think my path is getting more and more out to the right because today I started to hit some shanks (I caught one on video!). In addition, my contact was towards the heel.
Here are some videos from today. One is just face on, and the other has DTL (and the shank). My impact does look better when I'm trying to do the jump, but I have to admit I would rather take a flip than a blown out knee. Maybe its just that I'm not quite getting the jump and that results in increased knee strain instead of reduced knee strain?
YouTube - 2011 NSA jump swing 5i apr 25.wmv
YouTube - 2011 Jump shot w DTL apr25.wmv
I also think my path is getting more and more out to the right because today I started to hit some shanks (I caught one on video!). In addition, my contact was towards the heel.
Here are some videos from today. One is just face on, and the other has DTL (and the shank). My impact does look better when I'm trying to do the jump, but I have to admit I would rather take a flip than a blown out knee. Maybe its just that I'm not quite getting the jump and that results in increased knee strain instead of reduced knee strain?
YouTube - 2011 NSA jump swing 5i apr 25.wmv
YouTube - 2011 Jump shot w DTL apr25.wmv
counterfall
New
OK. You are likely combining pushing forward with the right leg with the Jump. These two things should be separated especially for you considering your existing knee condition. You may need to feel like your right leg goes dead after the transition to remove the pushing from the right side. This isn't something normally mentioned here but it is a definite biomechanical issue. Your left hip and knee is going too far left to be safe for your knee. The Jump is actually increasing the normal level of knee torque at this point. I would scale back to smooth 60 yard pitch shots with a wedge to get the sequencing correct. The best case scenario would be an in-person lesson with someone certified from Brian Manzella. But slowing the whole works down a bit to the point that you FEEL like Ernie Els or even Luke Donald kind of smooth may assist you. Any increased knee pain is a serious NO-GO. Ice the living crap out of it today. 20 minutes on and 20 minutes off (I have knee injury experience). Take 2 days off and start with mirror work until you think you have a good feel for a more vertical left leg and hip line from the face-on view. Then start with the 60 yard pitch shots.
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
I can see that you've made zero effort to change your closed face at address and strong right hand grip. Just curious as to why? All this "jump" stuff wont be worth s**t until you fix the way the shaft is working.
lia41985
New member
I would say that one of the first things you should do is to "loft" the club properly at address--currently it's too delofted. The club is also quite toed in and looks closed so that may need adjusting as well. But from this address position, you take a grip, which as Kevin stated is quite strong with the right hand. The right hand is rotated too clockwise on the grip and the right index sits "long" and "under". From this position:
and with that grip you're going to have to work under it because with that grip if you went right "to the ball" you'd be too steep and pull hook. Here's Ishikawa and Fowler:
Your right arm is higher and I can see more of the club face of the iron because of the grip.
and with that grip you're going to have to work under it because with that grip if you went right "to the ball" you'd be too steep and pull hook. Here's Ishikawa and Fowler:
Your right arm is higher and I can see more of the club face of the iron because of the grip.
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golfman5900
New
My knee is feeling a lot better, the ice was nice thanks!
Kevin, I actually did weaken my right hand grip. I'll weaken it more, if thats what you're trying to get across
Lia thanks very much for your detailed analysis. The pictures are great and help me understand the concept! I will be weakening my grip, but how much should i weaken it?
Thanks again
Kevin, I actually did weaken my right hand grip. I'll weaken it more, if thats what you're trying to get across
Lia thanks very much for your detailed analysis. The pictures are great and help me understand the concept! I will be weakening my grip, but how much should i weaken it?
Thanks again
Lindsey Newman
New
My knee is feeling a lot better, the ice was nice thanks!
Kevin, I actually did weaken my right hand grip. I'll weaken it more, if thats what you're trying to get across
Lia thanks very much for your detailed analysis. The pictures are great and help me understand the concept! I will be weakening my grip, but how much should i weaken it?
Thanks again
Just a bit of personal experience here from someone who has tried to play with a shut face, slide and drop under it move. If your looking for optimal, the face better be open enough that you can swing the club head out - with the shaft and back around to the inside without applying a closed face. By open I would think matching the left arm (or the slightest bit toe down if you're bowing) at hip high coming down with the left arm as vertical as possible.
If I were in your situation, I would make sure if anything, that the face was completely vertical at hip high, parallel to target line and parallel to ground. Your probably gonna hit high, right weak shots fit the first session, but keep after it until your starting to cover the ball with the whole shaft and clubhead through impact. I never understood release or almost thought it was a myth until I started practicing with my club face in a less shut position. Believe me, I thought the sun would rise and set on a forward leaning clubshaft , but it must swing left and it's impossible if your club face is overly closed.
Check out Brians latest video - Golf Magazine Top 100 Teacher Brian Manzella's Cut-Off Finish | Videos | Golf.com. . You can't do what he describes with a shut face.
You could always get super right elbow lead with tons of rotation and tilt, but you will always be holding off the face.lots of great players have played that way. Most of them have an open stance and block shots to the target because they work the shaft under to keep the face open.
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lia41985
New member
I think you first need to sole the club correctly before worrying about the grip. After that's taken care of, move on to the way your hands will orient on the grip. Pay particular attention and care to how you'll place the right index finger and thumb. The right index finger knuckle should be placed at a 2 o'clock position (on the grip, visualizing the circumference of the grip as a clock) and it should feel that once you've grounded the club and set the knuckle in this way that you could press into the ground quite strongly with the club's leading edge, as if you were going to shave some ice cream off of the top of a quart with a scoop. This knuckle is a big source through which you will input torque into your golf club. It's purpose and it's situation are very important. Look at how Manassero so beautifully uses his knuckle:
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golfman5900
New
Ok I'll open up the clubface and sole it properly at address. When you say "knuckle" are you referring to the MTP or the PIP? It looks like the PIP in the picture, and that makes the most sense with keeping the grip in the fingers.
Thanks,
GM
Thanks,
GM
lia41985
New member
The PIP. You're welcome. Let us know how you hit it and keep in mind what Lindsey Newman wrote!
golfman5900
New
Ok sounds good. I'll let you guys know how it goes. The knee feels pretty good now, so hopefully I'll hit the range Fri or on the weekend!
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