PGA is it history..?

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211pro

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An interesting thread, but...

...what everyone has missed here is the basic irrelevance of the individual PGA member to the PGA corporate type structure. The individual member (and his dues) comprises less than 12% of the national PGA's income. In other words, there is no reason to make ALL PGA members better instructors, as far as the national ass'n. is concerned. Can you spell...R -Y -D -E -R C -U -P??? Can you delve into all the real estate holdings owned by the PGA???
Sorry, but we PGA members are VERY small fish in a VERY BIG POND.:(
 
cmartingolf

cmartingolf

New
PGA Membership

You guys that want to put down the PGA Professionals make me sick!

Every one of you has probably been helped along by a PGA Pro at one time or another.

Sure, some don't have the knowledge or the passion of a Brian Manzella, but there are thousands of dedicated Men and Women who bust their butts to make the game more enriching for all of you.

Sure there are bad apples in every basket, but I'm proud of the PGA Members out there doing what they can every day to make the game more enjoyable for you.

Guys, if you want a great lesson. It's simple. Ask around and you'll learn which PGA members put more emphasis into teaching. The PGA Members that aren't "Gurus" have the basic knowledge to help 99% of golfers enjoy the game better. Leave the Gurus to the 1% that really want to work hard.

I know a very successful teacher that has been his Section's Teacher of the Year two times. When I watch him teach, I want to vomit at what he says to his students. It's so, "head down, follow through," crap that I can't listen. I know he knows the golf swing so I asked him, Why do you teach such crap? His response was simple:

"Most people want to hear what they THINK they already know. They don't want to be changed."

If I had a dollar for every chop that came up to me and said, "I know what I'm doing wrong....." I'd be retired. If you are reading this and you teach, you know what I'm talking about. I'm to stubborn to agree and I actually try and change folks if they are broken. Very few people want to change.

Bottom line: PGA Members have a ton of responsibilities during the course of a day and to some teaching is not their primary focus. I would hire those guys to run an event for you and they probably do a nice job managing a facility. If you want a lesson, I would find the PGA Member's that focus on teaching (B Man, etc) and you'll have an excellent experience.

No PGA Bashing here.....you probably need to show a little gratitude for something you are overlooking from your last visit to the golf course.

Martin Chuck, PGA
 
R

Ryan Smither

Super Moderator
Dear PGA,

In exchange for my 10 large, at the very least can I get an instruction manual that was printed after 1985?

Thank you,

Ryan Smither
 
B

Brian Manzella

Administrator
The PGA and Teaching.

You really can't fight City Hall.

Wouldn't it be great if the world worked liked this:

When you were ready for a mate, you just placed an order, and they arrived at your door.​

It sure doesn't.

So, you have two choices—play or not play and complain. (Of course you could play and complain).

The easiest way for me to make the Top 100 and Top 50 teachers list is to win the PowerBall and buy the magazines.

So, I can play or not play, or play and complain.

By the way, playing and complaining waste a lot of time you could use to play the game better.

The PGA is the house. Right now. One day, maybe not. The Mags run the stupid lists (there I am complaining). The Golf Channel is the only 24 hour golf network. Right now.

Could the PGA do a better job of teaching their members to teach?

Absolutely.

Will they?

Probably.

When?

Some day in the future when the business demands it.

The PGA IS HIGH SCHOOL for the aspiring golf professional. No fortune 500 company is advertising for 8th grade dropouts.

You want to be a pro, sign up, pay your 10 large. It is an entry fee, or at least, like Don Villavaso once famously said, a lifetime greens fee.

You WILL LEARN SOMETHING.

Then you need to figure out what line of work you want to be in, within the biz. Teaching? Go learn The Golfing Machine. It isn't perfect, but neither is Harvard Business School.

A TGM degree is like a college degree. A GSEM is sorta like a Master's degree.

Then go find someone like me who has flow all over the country learning from all the best, and trying to become the best, and learn under then.

Like a fellowship that top doctors do.

Is the average PGA pro a good teacher?

No.

But, trust me, the average Top 100 teacher would scare you if you watched them teach and you know a little about the swing.

I am a PGA member. I am a GSED.

But, just like Mark McCormick, the most important things I learned, I didn't learn in my "Harvard Business School."

Or High School.

But I'll sign you my High Schools fight song.

With gusto. ;)

By Brian Manzella, PGA, GSED...plaing and trying not to complain too much.;)
 
T

torvine

New
The last thing I thought when writing this post was to dismiss the hard work that some PGA instructors put in. Hell if I was younger ( 38 ) I would be knocking at their door.

A post mentioned asking around for a good instructor, to a newbee, or a seasoned player; Ask what..?

Every pro I have had with hindsight has been more interested in the money and not "how an I really make this hacker a player"

This here is the 1st and possibly the only place that tells you what you need to do. Knowing what to do is more than half the battle.

I can balance a broom on my finger for 15mins, ( a far, far, far more complex move than any golf swing.) Simply because I know what to do.
 
L

Leozevo

New
PGA Is It History

I would like to inject my thoughts pertaining to this topic. First and foremost the PGA had the chance to help their members become better teachers in 1973 when HK and Ben Doyle presented TGM to the PGA Education committee. The teachers missed out on a great teaching education and the golfing public missed out working with more qualified teachers to help them become better golfers. I have been a PGA member since 1969 so I have seen the organization grow greatly in improving their financial status but have the golf professionals become better educated. Not in teaching as I got my teaching knowledge all from TGM from 2001 and on. The PGA has a recertification system in place where you needed 36 Points in a three year period to maintain your PGA membership and they are extending it to 54 points for the next period. I had 214 points during the last period mostly by attending teaching seminars and teaching summits. Brian Manzella and Ben Doyle probably had about the same amount and I totally respect their desire to always be learning and debating. Brian, I do not think you are complaining pertaining to the not being on the magazines top 50 or top 100. I feel that it is the magazine's loss. You have earned all that you know in teaching and I am glad that I have had the opportunity to listen to you at TGM Summit's. When you and Ben Doyle speak at TGM Summit the room becomes totally quiet. What a compliment. I am very proud to be an AI.
 
birdie_man

birdie_man

New
CMar....

I know we are Canadians and we are supposed to be real nice.....lol :);).....

But ya........sometimes when one starts COMPLAINING (hehe) and focusing on the negarives one sounds like they are bashing EVERYone. (or at least- one must be careful to not come off this way)

No doubt there is a lot to improve.....(just like TGM)...

But no doubt there are positives..........and great PGA teachers out there too.
 
Last edited:
Steve Khatib

Steve Khatib

Super Moderator
A lot of valid points made

cmartingolf said:
You guys that want to put down the PGA Professionals make me sick!

Every one of you has probably been helped along by a PGA Pro at one time or another.

Sure, some don't have the knowledge or the passion of a Brian Manzella, but there are thousands of dedicated Men and Women who bust their butts to make the game more enriching for all of you.

Sure there are bad apples in every basket, but I'm proud of the PGA Members out there doing what they can every day to make the game more enjoyable for you.

Guys, if you want a great lesson. It's simple. Ask around and you'll learn which PGA members put more emphasis into teaching. The PGA Members that aren't "Gurus" have the basic knowledge to help 99% of golfers enjoy the game better. Leave the Gurus to the 1% that really want to work hard.

I know a very successful teacher that has been his Section's Teacher of the Year two times. When I watch him teach, I want to vomit at what he says to his students. It's so, "head down, follow through," crap that I can't listen. I know he knows the golf swing so I asked him, Why do you teach such crap? His response was simple:

"Most people want to hear what they THINK they already know. They don't want to be changed."

If I had a dollar for every chop that came up to me and said, "I know what I'm doing wrong....." I'd be retired. If you are reading this and you teach, you know what I'm talking about. I'm to stubborn to agree and I actually try and change folks if they are broken. Very few people want to change.

Bottom line: PGA Members have a ton of responsibilities during the course of a day and to some teaching is not their primary focus. I would hire those guys to run an event for you and they probably do a nice job managing a facility. If you want a lesson, I would find the PGA Member's that focus on teaching (B Man, etc) and you'll have an excellent experience.

No PGA Bashing here.....you probably need to show a little gratitude for something you are overlooking from your last visit to the golf course.

Martin Chuck, PGA
Click to expand...

Martin,
You make many valid true points that I and many of my fellow pros can relate to everyday . However there are still a lot of PGA issues that are just swept under the carpet and never be addressed! The poor teaching cirriculum is the biggest one and the 10% chops that are not A.D.D. and want to listen during a lesson at least deserve a local pro to have some idea and if things dont change now it will never happen as it will take a generational change(25 years) to weed out all of the weeds.
 
S

scandres

New
Martin,
What a disappointing story regarding the two time Section Teacher of the Year.
Why is he still teaching? Don't you think that's a pretty boring way to go through life?
The assumption that people need fixing sets up a dependent relationship where responsibility is taken off of the student.
My contention is that awareness is curative and that the teacher/coach should be responsible for cultivating a relationship focusing on learning.
It's too bad the PGA doesn't get it, we rarely work on learning to be present, or learning how to learn. We're (the PGA) are stuck in a model that doesn't work, handicaps aren't improving and I really don't think people are enjoying golf anymore now than they were 10 years ago.
The culture of golf needs to change.
I fully support guys like Ben Doyle, Brian Manzella and Fred Shoemaker who are all in their own way trying to create awareness.
Will (18 year PGA member)
 
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