Pictures of Manzella Neutral left thumb placement

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Jim Kobylinski

Super Moderator
There have been a lot of people who have wanted to see pictures of where the left thumb placement is for "manzella neutral" versus "aft side" of the strong single action grip. So i have done that for you, see below (This thread goes hand in hand with this thread: http://www.manzellagolfforum.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2508) :

Face on View of the left thumb placement of Manzella Nuetral:
Manzella Neutral.JPG


Golfer's View of the left thumb placement of Manzella Nuetral:
Manzella Neutral 2.JPG


Completed Manzella Nuetral Grip:
Manzella Neutral Complete.JPG
 

Jim Kobylinski

Super Moderator
Left thumb placement on the "aft" side of the shaft face on view:
Aft Left Thumb.JPG


Left thumb placement on the "aft" side of the shaft golfer's view:
Aft Left Thumb 2.JPG


Completed grip with the left thumb on the "aft" side of the shaft, notice it's slightly stronger than "Manzella Neutral."
Completed Grip with aft left thumb.JPG
 
Left thumb should be placed on the same line as Pressure Point #3. This gives maximum On Plane support for the Clubshaft throught Impact.

What are the geometric reasons for the Manzella 'left thumb on top' grip?

Thanks.
 

Jim Kobylinski

Super Moderator
I tried my best to show the left thumb placement for Manzella Neutral but it isn't "on top" and it isn't "aft" either. It's somewhere in between the two. Just like Brian says in his article, "place your thumb in a short position just to the right of the grip's centerline and make a thumbprint."

I'm not brian, but i think the main reason for this particular left thumb placement is so that you can have a true perfectly flat left wrist as i show in my pics in the other thread i posted.

If you see the pics in that thread you'll see with Manzella Neutral you're able to have a perfectly flat left wrist at the end/top of your backswing and have the clubface match. If you use a strong single action grip it isn't "perfectly flat" there is a small cup to it and it is more geometrically flat.

From what brian has taught/told me this grip is very similar to Mr. Hogan's grip and is a grip where you can have a full roll of the clubface without having to worry about the left hand side of the course.

I'm going to mess around with both grips (when i get a chance) and let you know how much easier/harder it is to draw the ball with a horizontal hinge.
 
quote:Originally posted by jim_0068

Completed grip with the left thumb on the "aft" side of the shaft, notice it's slightly stronger than "Manzella Neutral."

Jim, it would look no stronger if you had a larger gap b/w the thumb and index finger, correct? Is that as large a gap as you feel comfortable with?

I have trouble getting the thumb on the aft side without turning the wrist a tad stronger than 10-2-B (like in your photos). For me, the larger the gap b/w thumb and index finger (weaker wrist position), the more uncomfortable the grip becomes as the thumb rests more and more on it's edge.
 
quote:Originally posted by brianman

Leo,

The "geometric" reasons for this are VERY SIMPLE to explain, but are not in The Golfing Machine.

Do you want to hear it?

Sorry for belated reply -- forgot about this thread until someone brought it up again (http://www.manzellagolfforum.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2541)

Go on Brian. I have given my (Homer's) geometric reasons:

quote:Originally posted by tongzilla

Left thumb should be placed on the same line as Pressure Point #3. This gives maximum On Plane support for the Clubshaft throught Impact.
 
Before this discussion commences, I'd just like to say a few things:

1) Location of your Left Thumb has nothing to do with location of your Left Wrist Condition and Clubface Alignment.

2) Your Left Wrist should be Vertical at Impact. Now what does Vertical mean? For those who are relatively new to TGM -- Vertical means Vertical (perpendicular) to the Basic Plane of Motion (Horizontal, Angled or Vertical) you're using, which depends on your selected Hinge Action.

3) Clubface position at Impact can be Square, Opened or Close depending on Hinge Action, but has nothing to do with your Thumb Location.

4) I am repeating myself here: if you want maximum On Plane support through Impact you must have an Aft Left Thumb location. Per 1-L-10/11, 'The Lever Assembly must be driven through Impact by an On Plane force' and 'Clubhead Force and Motion is On Plane at right angles to the Longitudinal Center of Gravity (Sweetspot)'.

5) If you want a Vertical Left Wrist and an Aft Thumb location, there will inevitably be a gap between your Thumb and Forefinger.

Brian can label this "gaposis", but given the above, do you still think it's just plain wrong?
 
quote:Originally posted by brianman

Leo,

The "geometric" reasons for this are VERY SIMPLE to explain, but are not in The Golfing Machine.

Do you want to hear it?

yep - fire away
 

EdZ

New
quote:Originally posted by tongzilla

Before this discussion commences, I'd just like to say a few things:

1) Location of your Left Thumb has nothing to do with location of your Left Wrist Condition and Clubface Alignment.

I strongly disagree.

If you want to create a motion that ALLOWS the forces of the swing to create, and comply with, the geometry and the anatomy of the motion, the left thumb position is critical.

The thumb down the center of the shaft is exceptionally helpful in preventing the ball from going left, and can certainly help you learn a proper right forearm wedge - but that motion requires DOING something active with the hands/forearm during the motion (twist away) and effectively puts clubFACE control into the right wedge and/or the ACTIVE full rotation of the lead forearm.

At the 'limits' of true FULL roll, this has great power potential thanks to transfer power. It is quite important that you ACTIVELY either 'hold' the roll via twist away and/or focus on full forearm roll through the shot.

When the left thumb is in the proper, impact supporting position, the AMOUNT of active motion needed for clubface control is dramatically reduced. This gain in clubFACE control does give up some power (less transfer power), but with the benefit of 'very solid' flying wedges alignments and the increase in impact MASS that can more than make up for the slight loss of transfer power.


As with all areas of the motion, there are always going to be power vs accuracy vs consistency trade offs. If someone is able to control the ACTIVE nature the thumb down the center under real pressure, than it can indeed be a great way to play, per Hogan.

Between the two, swingers will find the 'down the center' thumb position helpful, and hitters the 'aft' thumb.
 
EdZ,

Interesting comments. I used to play with the thumb down the middle because if felt better. I am a swinger. For years I would hit a fade, slice, or straight with no draw or hook ever in sight. Later in playing (after 10 years of the right)my brother in law (TGM guy) told me to move my left hand thumb to the aft side. I did but never liked the way it felt or feels even now. I still don't hook or even draw often but it did lessen my slicing a bit. Since it is more comfortable for me to be in the middle, is it better to move back and focus on hinge action and educated hands (which I suspect were the cause of slicing) to correct the problem?

Kevin (TGM Novice but willing to learn...actually avid convert).
 
Question regarding the first pic of each...

In the first pic, it appears the left thumb remain close to the finger, whereas in the second pic, it appears that there is some separation.

I struggled with getting the left thumb on the aft of the shaft initially. Discovered if I get the right hand set, then slide the left thumb into the life line area of the right and just close the left, I can do it without having a super strong grip. Cause initially the back of my left hand was facing upward, this I knew was wrong. I just found I was keeping the left thumb and finger tight together and that didn't work.

This was a change from a weak grip to this, but it didn't solve that damn ball goes way left at the worse possible time...
 

EdZ

New
quote:Originally posted by kmmcnabb

EdZ,

Since it is more comfortable for me to be in the middle, is it better to move back and focus on hinge action and educated hands (which I suspect were the cause of slicing) to correct the problem?

Kevin (TGM Novice but willing to learn...actually avid convert).

If you find the full roll works best for you, by all means, enjoy the benefits of doing so. Find a song to hum to yourself to keep your Rhythm working properly.

You should learn each hinge action, yes. Learn each hinge action, with each hand. Learn to hit chips left hand only AND right hand only, with full roll and also with no roll FEEL.
 

Jim Kobylinski

Super Moderator
quote:Originally posted by Martee

Question regarding the first pic of each...

In the first pic, it appears the left thumb remain close to the finger, whereas in the second pic, it appears that there is some separation.

The first pic the left thumb isn't on the aft side. The second pic there is. This is where the hand and thumb need to be "for me" to create strong single action. I have very big hands/fingers.

If you turn your hand to have the left thumb on the aft with no thumb/hand separation you'll have an awefully strong grip.
 
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