Pivot Controlled Hands and Body "release"??

[Brian Manzella]

I agree Matt....BUT!

What if they tried it both ways and hit it better the other?

that's where the hmmmmmmmmmmmm came from.

 

[MizunoJoe]

matt,

Sutton said that his hands don't work "under pressure", but his body does. Would YOU use a pivot controlled stroke, IF it would get you a PGA Championship?

 

[matt]

quote:Originally posted by MizunoJoe

Would YOU use a pivot controlled stroke, IF it would get you a PGA Championship?

Of course I would!

Are you trying to convince people NOT to use a hand-controlled pivot? At least stipulate to the fact that it's better.

Homer thought EVERYTHING in the book had a use - including CLUBHEAD THROWAWAY. The pivot controlled hands swing definitely has a use, but not for me.

 

[MizunoJoe]

matt,

I am not now, nor have I ever trying to convince ANYONE to use pivot control, or not use it. I've just been saying that it is a valid option, notwithstanding the fact that it MAY or MAY NOT be the better one for a particular player.

Sutton determined by experience, that under the suffocating pressure of tour golf, his hands didn't work as well as his body. 'Hand Controlled Pivot' was NOT BETTER for HIM.

You said, "The pivot controlled hands swing definitely has a use, but not for me". Now that's fine, just don't try to tell Hal that it's not for HIM. He has some mighty impressive evidence to the contrary.

Regardless of Homer's prejudice against it, SOME players, for whatever reason, can execute a pivot control stroke better than a hand control stroke. Brian, in a post above, has told us of such students.

 

[rwh]

quote:Originally posted by MizunoJoe

Brian,

Sutton has described his method on TV - no hands/arms - a pure body swing. Azinger is John Redman's showcase student - Redman teaches a body swing with arms/hands controlled by the pivot.

BUT, the important thing is that you have verified that a 'pivot controlled hands' stroke IS an option, which Homer included in the book. He just doesn't PREFER it. Thanks for seconding what some of us are saying here - it's a valid CHOICE.

Ben Doyle uses a "body swing" ("I swear my arms never move"), but he definitely teaches a hands controlled pivot. There is a difference between what powers your swing and what controlsthe swing. The purpose of the (so called) "body swing" is to (a) rotate sufficently to generate the required angular momentum and (2) deliver the hands and, therefore, the clubshaft and clubface, to their correct on-plane position/alignments at impact and on to separation. If your "body swing" isn't doing that, then you will absolutely change your "body swing" to get those hands in the correct on-plane position/alignments at impact. That is how and why the hands control the pivot.

 

[MizunoJoe]

A 'pivot controlled' stroke which doesn't produce the correct impact alignments is corrected WITHOUT hand control, or else morphs into a 'hand controlled' stroke. The idea that a pivot controlled stroke in which the player is 'aware" of where the hands are, constitutes hand control, is a semantical game that ignores reality.

A 'hand controlled' stroke is one in which a hand pressure point is directed toward an aiming point.

 

[rwh]

quote:Originally posted by MizunoJoe

A 'pivot controlled' stroke which doesn't produce the correct impact alignments is corrected WITHOUT hand control, or else morphs into a 'hand controlled' stroke. The idea that a pivot controlled stroke in which the player is 'aware" of where the hands are, constitutes hand control, is a semantical game that ignores reality.

A 'hand controlled' stroke is one in which a hand pressure point is directed toward an aiming point.

Perhaps I wasn't as precise as I needed to be; please allow me to try again. Mr. Kelley stated that the geometry or physics requirements do not change whether the player uses a "Hands Controlled Pivot" or "Pivot Controlled Hands". The difference between the two is found in what the player monitors. If the player monitors the Pivot, then, according to Mr. Kelley, he assigns Physics precedence over Geometry, which he believed to be less than optimal. However, he acknowledged that a player may use that alternative (5-0 at page 61).

In my previous post, I was attempting to show how the "body swinger" could be using a "Hand Controlled Pivot" by monitoring the Hands rather than the body. I certainly wasn't taking the position that players don't -- or shouldn't -- use the "Pivot Controlled Hand" procedure.

 

[njmp2]

quote:Originally posted by rwh

quote:Originally posted by MizunoJoe

Brian,

Sutton has described his method on TV - no hands/arms - a pure body swing. Azinger is John Redman's showcase student - Redman teaches a body swing with arms/hands controlled by the pivot.

BUT, the important thing is that you have verified that a 'pivot controlled hands' stroke IS an option, which Homer included in the book. He just doesn't PREFER it. Thanks for seconding what some of us are saying here - it's a valid CHOICE.

Ben Doyle uses a "body swing" ("I swear my arms never move"), but he definitely teaches a hands controlled pivot. There is a difference between what powers your swing and what controlsthe swing. The purpose of the (so called) "body swing" is to (a) rotate sufficently to generate the required angular momentum and (2) deliver the hands and, therefore, the clubshaft and clubface, to their correct on-plane position/alignments at impact and on to separation. If your "body swing" isn't doing that, then you will absolutely change your "body swing" to get those hands in the correct on-plane position/alignments at impact. That is how and why the hands control the pivot.

Ben is describing a feeling, the same feeling I have in my swing - that the hands aren't moving, but if you watch his hands and arms (or mine), they are always moving, something Ben says over and over, "the right arm is always pushing, always driving."

Can a body swing be a hand control swing? Yes, The hands are the brains, they “CONTROL”, they do not “DO”. Can a body swing be a pivot control swing, sure, but please don’t put words into Homer Kelley’s mouth. He did not advocate brainless hands.

Only after the hands are EDUCATED, only after the hands learn to CONTROL the swing, only after they graduate with honors can the golfer feel more body.

 

[MizunoJoe]

Your attempt to "show how a "body swinger" could be using a "Hand Controlled Pivot" by monitoring the Hands rather than the body" is what I disagree with. When Homer says "monitor the hands" he is saying more than just "be aware of the hands". He means that a hand pressure point is driven to an aiming point. By 'Pivot Controlled Hands', he means that the hands are taken taken through the impact interval ONLY by the pivot(slide and turn), with a certain amount of arm structure tension OR without(limp).

A 'body swinger' IS utilizing a 'Pivot Controlled Hand' procedure and is using an aiming point EQUIVALENT - the open or closed stance line along with a variable ball position, and an habitual pivot procedure which reliably brings the hands very dependably into Release Position in relation to the body(10-24-F). The hands go where the body takes them EVEN IF YOU ARE AWARE OF THEM.

A 'body swinger' who uses a 'hand controlled pivot' isn't a body swinger at all.

 

[rwh]

quote:Originally posted by MizunoJoe

Your attempt to "show how a "body swinger" could be using a "Hand Controlled Pivot" by monitoring the Hands rather than the body" is what I disagree with. When Homer says "monitor the hands" he is saying more than just "be aware of the hands". He means that a hand pressure point is driven to an aiming point. By 'Pivot Controlled Hands', he means that the hands are taken taken through the impact interval ONLY by the pivot(slide and turn), with a certain amount of arm structure tension OR without(limp).

A 'body swinger' IS utilizing a 'Pivot Controlled Hand' procedure and is using an aiming point EQUIVALENT - the open or closed stance line along with a variable ball position, and an habitual pivot procedure which reliably brings the hands very dependably into Release Position in relation to the body(10-24-F). The hands go where the body takes them EVEN IF YOU ARE AWARE OF THEM.

A 'body swinger' who uses a 'hand controlled pivot' isn't a body swinger at all.

Homer says you either monitor the hands or the pivot (TGM, page 61), so I agree that if "body swinger" means you're monitoring the pivot, then you can't be monitoring the hands.

 

[njmp2]

quote:Originally posted by MizunoJoe

Your attempt to "show how a "body swinger" could be using a "Hand Controlled Pivot" by monitoring the Hands rather than the body" is what I disagree with. When Homer says "monitor the hands" he is saying more than just "be aware of the hands". He means that a hand pressure point is driven to an aiming point. By 'Pivot Controlled Hands', he means that the hands are taken taken through the impact interval ONLY by the pivot(slide and turn), with a certain amount of arm structure tension OR without(limp).

A 'body swinger' IS utilizing a 'Pivot Controlled Hand' procedure and is using an aiming point EQUIVALENT - the open or closed stance line along with a variable ball position, and an habitual pivot procedure which reliably brings the hands very dependably into Release Position in relation to the body(10-24-F). The hands go where the body takes them EVEN IF YOU ARE AWARE OF THEM.

A 'body swinger' who uses a 'hand controlled pivot' isn't a body swinger at all.

Being aware of your hands is NOT educated hands. Educated hands is control through all pressure points, power accumulators, etc. I never implied that just being aware of them is "educated." Ben taught me how to use my hands, how to have a powerful pivot that responses to the control center. The hands go where they go because they let the body or pivot take them there. As I said, the hands don't "do." they control. And the hands should not be a prisioner of the body, which is what you are writing but, my guess not really doing. When Homer said, body, hands, club, in that order, he didn't mean a pivot control. The body goes first because the hands put it first.

 

[MizunoJoe]

njmp2,

That post was a reply to rwh and, therefore, wasn't intended to make any judgement on your definition of "educated hands".

In any case, I'll respond to some of your statements.

"The hands go where they go because they let the body or pivot take them there." Not in a 'pivot controlled hand' procedure, because the pivot is boss and that's why an 'equivalent' to the aiming point concept MUST be utilized(10-24-F) - namely, the hands reliably returning to the same position relative to the body via a consistent pivot. In this case, saying that the hands 'let' the pivot take them through impact, is like saying that the suspect in the squad car is 'letting' the officer take him to jail.

"...the hands don't "do", they control" If driving a pressure point on the hand toward an aiming point isn't "doing" something, what would be?

"And the hands should not be a prisoner of the body, which is what you are writing, but, my guess not really doing." The hands are most certainly a prisoner of the body in a 'pivot controlled hand' stroke, just as surely as the felon is the cop's prisoner. And, I can execute BOTH pivot controlled AND hand controlled strokes, and I really do know when it's the former that I'm executing.

 

[njmp2]

quote:Originally posted by MizunoJoe

njmp2,

And, I can execute BOTH pivot controlled AND hand controlled strokes, and I really do know when it's the former that I'm executing.

You are a better man then me Joe. I'll stick with Homer, Ben and Yoda. My game ain't hurtin' learning from them. Good golfing. [8D]

 

[MizunoJoe]

njmp2,

I didn't say that to infer I was "better" than anyone, only to indicate that I have experimented with pivot control and hand control in an effort to fully understand these concepts in pursuit of an optimum stroke pattern(s).

 

[njmp2]

quote:Originally posted by MizunoJoe

njmp2,

I didn't say that to infer I was "better" than anyone, only to indicate that I have experimented with pivot control and hand control in an effort to fully understand these concepts in pursuit of an optimum stroke pattern(s).

I know you didn't infer that you were.

 

[300Drive]

quote:Originally posted by matt

Sure, it's an option. Just an inferior one.

I don't know why anybody would knowingly choose something Homer termed "inferior."

1) Probably because whats "inferior" to one may be "superior" for another.....we are humans, meaning individually "different". Kareem's sky hook was different than Cowen's or Lanier's or Magic's but each ones shot was "superior" FOR THEM.

2) Inferior is a relative word, in this case, since we are talking about EFFECTIVENESS of the movement through the ball, NOT whether or not steel is sronger than paper (which is indisputable).

3) Relax on the dogmatic approach...or, just go tell Jim Thorpe to change his swing because it sucks, and there is a better way for him to play....(be realistic).