Pivot drills... any use?

[golfbulldog]

Any body who has played golf in the last 15-20 years must have done some of those "hands folded across the chest" pivot drills.

They have been popularised by many pros and teachers.

But something Brian posted some time ago has recently come to mind. forgive me if i misquote you Brian but you once said something like " Baloney !!!... you got to learn to make your pivot aim your hands..." or somehing like that! I may have added in the "baloney" but i love it when Brian starts a sentence with that! You know you are in for some real good stuff!

ANyway... shouldn't all pivot drills try and incorporate the hands being aimed by the pivot... or else your pivot isn't really doing what it has to do? Or at least aim the right shoulder ( but that is difficult to do because hard to tell where right shoulder is pointing!)

Thanks for your thoughts

Happy new year

 

[Spike]

Any body who has played golf in the last 15-20 years must have done some of those "hands folded across the chest" pivot drills.

They have been popularised by many pros and teachers.

But something Brian posted some time ago has recently come to mind. forgive me if i misquote you Brian but you once said something like " Baloney !!!... you got to learn to make your pivot aim your hands..." or somehing like that! I may have added in the "baloney" but i love it when Brian starts a sentence with that! You know you are in for some real good stuff!

ANyway... shouldn't all pivot drills try and incorporate the hands being aimed by the pivot... or else your pivot isn't really doing what it has to do? Or at least aim the right shoulder ( but that is difficult to do because hard to tell where right shoulder is pointing!)

Thanks for your thoughts

Happy new year

Imo, isolating the pivot in Zone #1 with hands across the chest can teach the sequence, relationships and balance of the moving parts. This is invaluable when you want to introduce the aiming of the hands so that our brain and body do not fight against the learned motion.

 

[solarbear]

IMHO the arms across the chest is a complete waste of time. The second you pick up a club your computer recognizes that the situation is different and ignores what you were doing in a mirror.

Been having lots of success working on my pivot with a club. Standing straight upright and just folding and unfolding the right arm - watching the right forearm and clubshaft travel along the plane. By standing upright, like you are hitting a baseball, it allows you really see and feel the relationship between shoulders, hips, elbows and arms. If you swing it slowly you can really feel the natural sequence everything should move and release in.

The only real difference between that and a real swing is the real swing is performed bent over, but its much easier to practice standing upright as you only have to focus on the horizontal component of the plane and can then focus on idividual items like pivot, hands, shoulders.

 

[hue]

Make sure you do pivot drills correctly with the trail shoulder going down plane on the down stroke. The Leadbetter pivot drill where you just turn and turn has an above plane trail shoulder move in the through stroke pivot move. this is bad training.

 

[Ringer]

Arms accross your chest should pretty much be demonstration only. Do it once or twice just to see what you should be doing. But doing it repeatedly will not make you do it automatically when it comes to crunch time. In short, it is a huge waste of time beyond 5 seconds of it.

Hand controlled pivot is what Homer advocates. I just say let your hands swing AWAY from the ball.. then THROUGH the ball to your finish. Although usually I try to keep the focus on the club if at all possible. Not on what the clubhead is doing, but rather letting the whole club go back away from the ball.. then through the ball and on to the finish. Just free up the motion. Let the arms and club swing freely.

 

[puttmad]

I think the previous post re this "no club" drill was the fact that you need the weight of the swinging clubhead to be a factor, as counterbalancing that weight (which tends to pull your body towards the target line) is part of the process of turning correctly.
Without factoring in the clubhead weight, your body will balance itself differently (wrongly), thus the exercise is a waste of time...
Its only useful function is in learning to feel how the lower back muscles compress and decompress during the turns..

 

[Perfect Impact]

Not the light weight of the club only, but the 40 lb weight of the two arms swinging!

BIG diff. in balance.

Very good point; not that the drill isn't of value, but that as you say there is a very big difference in the real swing dynamics.

 

[shefield]

To Perfect Impact (GH?):
Regarding swingwing without a club - does this change your recommendations in GINTH! about swing drills without a club?

 

[Perfect Impact]

Swinging the ARMS without a club also involves SWINGING the torso, which means you are swinging almost all of the weight that gets swung- a club weighs less than 1 lb, the arms close to 40 lbs, and much greater weight gets swung in the torso by the pivot. Further, the balance mechanisms of the body are quite adaptive to whatever weight they must support and adjust. The answer is "not at all."

 

[Spike]

Pivot drills....any use?

Yes.

 

[puttmad]

...

Not the light weight of the club only, but the 40 lb weight of the two arms swinging!

BIG diff. in balance.

Very good point; not that the drill isn't of value, but that as you say there is a very big difference in the real swing dynamics.

Er, yes George..I wasn't exactly advocatiing that you swing a club without using your arms..........

 

[puttmad]

...

Swinging the ARMS without a club also involves SWINGING the torso, which means you are swinging almost all of the weight that gets swung- a club weighs less than 1 lb, the arms close to 40 lbs, and much greater weight gets swung in the torso by the pivot. Further, the balance mechanisms of the body are quite adaptive to whatever weight they must support and adjust. The answer is "not at all."

George, the weight of the torso is not exactly "swung" and the arms are only moving at the speed of the body..
Althought the club (and head) are comparitively lighter, they are moving much faster, thus exerting the pull on the arms, shoulders etc...
Swing a club FAST horizontally and see what component causes the most pull on your body. Same as swinging a stone on a piece of string..It won't be your arms.....

 

[Perfect Impact]

You appear not to be familiar with the David Lee "counterfall" and his description of the weight of the arms. If you spin, there is a tug-o-war going on between the weight in your back falling backwards and the weight of your arms and hands spinning around - the balance point between the two forces is steady like the ribbon marking the center of the line between two opposing teams OF tug-o-war.

We are so used to the weight of the arms when spinning in the drill you say we are not aware of their pull: it is expected...

Yes, the club adds weight in this formula; no question that it does. The body's mechanisms do adjust the balancing fairly automatically, as well.

 

[golfbulldog]

Good points about how a pivot might react to a heavier arm/club scenario.... or perhaps a pivot might have to compensate for this weight.

BUT any comments about AIMING the hands with the pivot. This is the main point that i was hoping to discuss. I think that you can aim the right shoulder but not easy to really see where it goes.

Brian and others, can you confirm your thoughts about how you think the pivot aims the hands/pp3/club during pivot motion? Thanks

 

[Perfect Impact]

The pivot does not aim the arms or hands. YOU do: and the pivot supplies the force to do it.

Tracing the plane line: I draw a ribbon under the golfer's chin and in his BS he traces that line and seeks his right shoulder with his left thumb.

In the DS he traces the target line with the grip cap on the way down and then swings his hands and throws the clubhead at the target--the ball--followiing that same target line. Of course the circular motion is an up and in path after impact - he doesn't steer the club.

I NEVER use the right index finger to monitor: consciousness of that finger in my opinion tends to give it importance for pressing the shaft forward: my equivalent is the fulcrum of the club under the left thumb.

 

[Butch]

The pivot does not aim the arms or hands. YOU do: and the pivot supplies the force to do it.

Tracing the plane line: I draw a ribbon under the golfer's chin and in his BS he traces that line and seeks his right shoulder with his left thumb.

In the DS he traces the target line with the grip cap on the way down and then swings his hands and throws the clubhead at the target--the ball--followiing that same target line. Of course the circular motion is an up and in path after impact - he doesn't steer the club.

I NEVER use the right index finger to monitor: consciousness of that finger in my opinion tends to give it importance for pressing the shaft forward: my equivalent is the fulcrum of the club under the left thumb.

George,

In fairness to everyone reading your opinions, I think you need to state (per your comments on other forums) that you do not carry an established handicap and you have never played any competitive golf. Then readers can make their own decision as to whether they want to follow your advice....or not.

 

[shortgamer]

George,

In fairness to everyone reading your opinions, I think you need to state (per your comments on other forums) that you do not carry an established handicap and you have never played any competitive golf. Then readers can make their own decision as to whether they want to follow your advice....or not.

Damn George, people follow you everywhere

 

[shefield]

George,

In fairness to everyone reading your opinions, I think you need to state (per your comments on other forums) that you do not carry an established handicap and you have never played any competitive golf. Then readers can make their own decision as to whether they want to follow your advice....or not.

Butch,
I think George is an engineer who has turned his study to the golf swing. Does that bio sound familiar? Homer Kelley? The Golfing Machine?

 

[Perfect Impact]

I have one for YOU, Butch:

If someone has played good golf and has a low handicap, do you suppose that makes him qualified to teach others? I have taught such people myself and some of them know maybe 1/20th of what I know. To say nothing of being able to communicate valuable help to golfers of all levels. Do you read GD or GOLF or Golf Tips?

Do you think ability to teach is an automatic if you can do?

What you did not say is what my credentials are: and those were also published on the forums you cite.

I had occasion to hear a comment by one of the executive/buyers/managers of the Washington DC real estate office of Prudential Ins. Co. of America, at the time believed to be the second largest RE commerical property owners in the world: when asked if he used CPMs to manage their properties: 1) "What's a CPM?" (Certified Property Manager - a title given after many years of apprenticeship and academic training - equal to the demands for CPA), and 2) "I don't care what you hang on your wall: let me talk to your clients!"

Besides which, intuition (natural gift of understanding) will always surpass training: AND be more greatly improved BY it.

 

[Perfect Impact]

This was posted a short time ago on another forum by a regular poster:

"Four PGA instructors just cost me time and money, but you might get lucky and find a good one."


Four! Not a quirk, not an anomaly: the norm.

Ask Brian.

QED