pivot question

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shortgamer

shortgamer

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There's an instructor on another forum that is basically worshiped for his thought's on the swing (jim will know who I'm talking about) and I had a question about the pivot.

First of all I'm of the belief that you snap your kinetic chain for power and it would have to start with the hip brake. He's of the belief that there is no hip brake and the rotary pivot continues to pull the hands left after impact. Or does the rotary pivot actually brake and he fails to recognize it?

I figured Brian would have seen the proof by somebody by now.
 
birdie_man

birdie_man

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I know exactly what you're talking about sg.............I've posted about this b4 too................on the kinetic chain debate. (of sorts)

I didn't get to the bottom of it...........but I trust Brian.

Not trying to single anyone out BTW...........in fact I would rather try to not do so............but I just think it's important to get the facts straight.

In other words.......if we are talking about science it needs to be accurate, one way or another.
 
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golfie

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More info needed

I wish someone would actually provide even a theoretical reason why braking could be beneficial. IMO, braking takes energy out of the system.

As far as I am aware the only ideas presentd here have been the bogus notion about things flying around in a car when the brakes are applied. Sadly, the energy was transferred as the car got up to speed and not during braking.....
 
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Bigwill

New
These days, if you're looking for the answer to that in golf research, you'll have a harder time than you would elswhere. Field events (track and field) have much more info on kinetic linking. So does research involving baseball pitching.
 
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holeout

New
Brian has said that he's seen data from 3-D machines and K-Vests that support the snapping of the kinetic chain (and pivot braking or whatever) happening in good players, not so much in bad ones. I have no idea why he would lie about something like this.
 
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golfie

New
Chicken and Egg?

I do wonder about the conclusions reached. Distal parts of the kinetic chain may slow, but is it due to active braking or simply transfer of energy from the rotating torso to the club? Or is it the bodies desire to avoid injury which slows the lower body? Or indeed perhaps it is the "braking" which somehow "transfers" additonal energy to the clubhead. The latter seems most unlikely.
 
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Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
Anyone who can throw a ball at any speed knows that energy can only pass through segments of the body when the previous segment stops.....but... does it stop on purpose? Or does it stop because energy has passed on to the next part?
 
K

Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
shortgamer said:
There's an instructor on another forum that is basically worshiped for his thought's on the swing(jim will know who I'm talking about) and I had a question about the pivot.First of all I'm of the belief that you snap your kinetic chain for power and it would have to start with the hip brake. He's of the belief that there is no hip brake and the rotary pivot continues to pull the hands left after impact. Or does the rotary pivot actually brake and he fails to recognize it? I figured Brian would have seen the proof by somebody by now.
Click to expand...

That intstructor must have never seen a bizhub swingvision.....or can't hit it at all.
 
2mongoose

2mongoose

New
These guys don't get it

doubled said:
Anyone who can throw a ball at any speed knows that energy can only pass through segments of the body when the previous segment stops.....but... does it stop on purpose? Or does it stop because energy has passed on to the next part?
Click to expand...

When Brian made all those analogies to the movements of other sports I felt kinda silly because I played a ton of 'em growing up and still never made the connection. :eek:

For anyone who has an ounce of athletic ability I can't fathom the whole "pivot never stops" argument. I mean c'mon you can feel it happening.

However, I'm a big believer that you shouldn't try and stop it (pivot) on purpose. It just kinda needs to happen....
 
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pecky987

New
i had an argument about this over a youtube video with someone who refused to believe that the body slowed down through impact. i would post the video so you can see but it shows another teacher. anyway he was saying how the rate of rotation may decrease, but the body is actually accelerating, not decelerating. i know this sounds counter-preductive or oxymoronic, i thought it was, as my physics is really not up to snuff :(

he used the analogy of an ice dancer goin into a spin. as they spin they slow down due to friction and loss of momentum and so forth. but yet they increase their rate of rotation, whilst they are slowing down. so he was basically saying is they are accelerating, but the rate of rotation of their body (hips, knees etc). i dont really know if this is against the snapping the kinetic chain 'theory' (is it a theory? i think its been proved adequately, obviously not) or backs it up.

ps google kinematic sequence
 
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Brian Manzella

Administrator
The Facts.

You can't see normal "tour quality" kinetic chain "snapping" in 30fps video.

No chance.

I recently was sent a video of a young man at 320 fps. OBVIOUS hip breaking, and then—of course—shoulder breaking. I'd post it up, but because he can't beat Tiger yet, why not look at Tiger's NIKE high-speed stuff?

Anyhoo, I know there are MANY instructors who just don't get Kinetic Chain snapping yet. Not just the guy in question.

So what?

When I was young EVERY SINGLE INSTRUCTOR IN THE WORLD though slicers had their hands too far forward at impact.

Where are the apologies?

Don't hold your breath. As far as I know, my honesty on my mistakes and mistaken concepts over the years are as rare as my ability to teach no matter WHAT the heck I was teaching.

The kinetic chain snaps. I teach it to everyone who needs it. How do you explain Lindsey Gahm's Tour Quality distance? She had a WIDE, sweep release, can't weigh a buck twenty-five, and swings "so-called" smoothly.

What folks don't understand is what a RELEASE really is. The way I explain it in "The Soft Draw Pattern 1.0" is so simple, so obviously correct, I am surprised it took me that long to synthesize it that way.

You can RELEASE this way with WIDE, WIDE, WIDE open hips. Lee Trevino is a perfect example.

Where you SNAP the chain is important stuff. Later in the swing lets you do TOTALLY different stuff than earlier.

Believe me, that's all someone who professes to teach "constant" rotation is REALLY teaching. Whether they know it yet, or not.

But, when they do, don't expect any mia culpas anytime soon.
 
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Brian Manzella

Administrator
Listen folks...

Let's not make this personal.

The instructor is one of MANY, MANY who don't think the chain snaps the way I have PLAINLY SEEN on 3D and high speed video.

They will.

This is about the 'chain" not a 'rope.'

Get it?
 
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puttmad

New
....

golfie said:
I do wonder about the conclusions reached. Distal parts of the kinetic chain may slow, but is it due to active braking or simply transfer of energy from the rotating torso to the club? Or is it the bodies desire to avoid injury which slows the lower body? Or indeed perhaps it is the "braking" which somehow "transfers" additonal energy to the clubhead. The latter seems most unlikely.
Click to expand...

golfie,
you need to go and study the action of the trebuchet...
This is a medieval catapault.... Nothing gets anywhere until the main body of the machine stops......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2nX-vz_zVs&feature=related
 
cmartingolf

cmartingolf

New
Puttmad,

Excellent example.

Can somebody help me out with something I've been thinking all of my teaching life (22 years)??? Sustaining the Line of Compression....

I guess I don't really get how LOC and breaking work together???
 
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Brian Manzella

Administrator
What LOC really is in the real world.

cmartingolf said:
Puttmad,

Excellent example.

Can somebody help me out with something I've been thinking all of my teaching life (22 years)??? Sustaining the Line of Compression....

I guess I don't really get how LOC and breaking work together???
Click to expand...

The Line of Compression is SIMPLY a square hit.

Period.

You can't "sustain" anything, but if you mean "compression through a flat left wrist," then the Kinetic Chain works like this:

The Hips slow to a point—then—the shoulders to a point—then—the arms to a point—then—the club catches the wrists———after impact.
 
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