Pivot/ setup lost cause

[lmisner1040]

Alrighty then, my last questions on the Perfect pivot where very tough and nobody could show any illustration towards the answers that have put many a golfer in a tissy.
I understand this is not a perfect answer forum. YET

So lets throw this one out. Many very good golfers have a nice hold, setup and aim to the human eye. They have the perfect pivot backswing with hands and arms in proper position at the top. Then on the downswing they have the perfect downswing pivot. Left wrist flat right wrist bent. Problem, too many thin shots. What's happening and what's the cure. Careful now. Nobody knew the answers for the last one's. So take it slowly.

 

[birdie_man]

Flipping prolly.....

Or ball position....

 

[Perfect Impact]

Failure to deal with pullaway of the left shoulder, in many cases.

This is why Luke Donald, John Daly, and a host of others address their driver with the ball off the ground on a tee, and the club heel on the ground behind the ball. The SS of the club itself is lower than the ball, and further from their feet, at address. The correct impact position of the left shoulder - a couple inches further from that initial position of the club, makes the club arrive for perfect impact.

This is easy to discover: stand in a normal address: now move your torso to where it will be in a really exuberant drive, without moving your "head" or swing center. The left shoulder rises AND turns a bit leftward. So the club is pulled away from its position by a couple inches.

 

[lmisner1040]

illustration

[QUOTE=Perfect Impact]Failure to deal with pullaway of the left shoulder, in many cases.

This is why Luke Donald, John Daly, and a host of others address their driver with the ball off the ground on a tee, and the club heel on the ground behind the ball. The SS of the club itself is lower than the ball, and further from their feet, at address. The correct impact position of the left shoulder - a couple inches further from that initial position of the club, makes the club arrive for perfect impact.

This is easy to discover: stand in a normal address: now move your torso to where it will be in a really exuberant drive, without moving your "head" or swing center. The left shoulder rises AND turns a bit leftward. So the club is pulled away from its position by a couple inches.[/QUOTE]



Failure to deal with pullaway, John Daly, Luke Donald etc. Why would they not deal with it. Can't you fix it?

George are you saying they are increasing there axis tilt. Remember they have the perfect downswing pivot.

Keep working on the answer.

 

[lmisner1040]

Not today

Flipping prolly.....

Or ball position....

Not flipping, nor wrong ball position.

 

[Perfect Impact]

The accommodation at address IS dealing with it. It is not a swing fault issue: it is a reality of anatomy and of the mechanics of a swing where the center remains fixed, the hips slide left and turn, and where at impact the left shoulder SIMPLY IS FURTHER from the ground where it sat at address.

It is exactly WHAT YOU DO TO address the issue. Zoeller is the extreme; many people handle it with soft arms at address that stretch to the same amount longer from the sternum as the pullaway moves the club FROM the sternum.

Would you prefer to teach someone to deal with pullaway by asking him to drop his head down about six inches ala Woods to go get the ball so as not to whiff it, as in the pics posted here this morning with the red, white, and yellow lines...? If Tiger did NOT dip down that far, is there a possibility he COULD even contact the ball? So he deals with it DURING THE SWING instead of before. Good luck.

Inkster (not a bad golfer) and Lopez (not a bad golfer) and Couples (not a bad golfer) extend their left arm and uncock their wrist to the extreme at setup and that handles the stretching for them. So all people MUST deal with stretching on the one hand, and pullaway on the other. Consciously and therefore able to control their game, or unconsciously and unable to control their game. The business of "good days and bad days" IME has a heck of a lot more to do with measuring to the ball than anything else I have ever encountered. Those who KNOW of these realities have more good days because they KNOW how to control impact integrity.

As J Miller said, in the pro-ams the INABILITY OF THE GOLFERS TO HIT THE BALL CONSISTENTLY IN THE CENTER OF THE CLUBFACE was what held them back, not their swings.

If such (depth control) were not the problem most commonly experienced by golfers, the average handicap would be 12 strokes lower than it is.

 

[lmisner1040]

Grounded

The accommodation at address IS dealing with it. It is not a swing fault issue: it is a reality of anatomy and of the mechanics of a swing where the center remains fixed, the hips slide left and turn, and where at impact the left shoulder SIMPLY IS FURTHER from the ground where it sat at address.

It is exactly WHAT YOU DO TO address the issue. Zoeller is the extreme; many people handle it with soft arms at address that stretch to the same amount longer from the sternum as the pullaway moves the club FROM the sternum.

Would you prefer to teach someone to deal with pullaway by asking him to drop his head down about six inches ala Woods to go get the ball so as not to whiff it, as in the pics posted here this morning with the red, white, and yellow lines...? If Tiger did NOT dip down that far, is there a possibility he COULD even contact the ball? So he deals with it DURING THE SWING instead of before. Good luck.

Inkster (not a bad golfer) and Lopez (not a bad golfer) and Couples (not a bad golfer) extend their left arm and uncock their wrist to the extreme at setup and that handles the stretching for them. So all people MUST deal with stretching on the one hand, and pullaway on the other. Consciously and therefore able to control their game, or unconsciously and unable to control their game. The business of "good days and bad days" IME has a heck of a lot more to do with measuring to the ball than anything else I have ever encountered. Those who KNOW of these realities have more good days because they KNOW how to control impact integrity.

As J Miller said, in the pro-ams the INABILITY OF THE GOLFERS TO HIT THE BALL CONSISTENTLY IN THE CENTER OF THE CLUBFACE was what held them back, not their swings.

If such (depth control) were not the problem most commonly experienced by golfers, the average handicap would be 12 strokes lower than it is.

George the ball is on the ground not on a tee. Your saying one is to address it off the heel still?

Tiger dips, and how does he know how much to dip, did he work on a drill?

Keep your thoughts coming. This is getting good.

 

[Perfect Impact]

The adjustments ANYONE needs to make to account for "the two elephants in the living room" (stretching, on the one hand, and pullaway, on the other) are PERSONAL and are FOUND by trial and error from feedback, in the same way that your eye doctor FINDS your prescription from YOU TELLING HIM which "is better." Knowing of those realities is the key. With irons, the adjustments necessary involve LESS of shoulder/hip pullaway because the swing plane is more vertical. And with anyone, how much they remove or leave any slack in their elbows and in "low hands" vs. high hands (i.e., how much wristc0ck remains in the setup position) also affects how much stretch occurs or doesn't occur.

I rarely make an adjustment of the same kind with my irons as I must do for my woods: if I do not make that adjustment (placing ball at heel) with my fwy woods I WILL COLD-C0CK TOP THE SUCKER every time. IOW, my ball position for fwy wood MUST be placed at the heel of my club with a normal posture and stance to be LONG ENOUGH TO REACH THE BALL during the swing when I do not dip to "go after" it.

Tom Lehman and early TW are posterboys for "FINDING THE BALL WHILE SWINGING." Not easy to do...Not recommended...Not even POSSIBLE for 99.99999% of the world without their hand/eye talent.

Tha's my take.

 

[tourdeep]

Alrighty then, my last questions on the Perfect pivot where very tough and nobody could show any illustration towards the answers that have put many a golfer in a tissy.
I understand this is not a perfect answer forum. YET

So lets throw this one out. Many very good golfers have a nice hold, setup and aim to the human eye. They have the perfect pivot backswing with hands and arms in proper position at the top. Then on the downswing they have the perfect downswing pivot. Left wrist flat right wrist bent. Problem, too many thin shos. What's happening and what's the cure. Careful now. Nobody knew the answers for the last one's. So take it slowly.

If we define flipping, the veritcal motion of the left wrist moves to a horizontal motion thru impact, this can result in thin shots. Improper ball position relative to one's swing can result in thin shots as well. I'm with Birdie on this...

If you are saying the wedges are maintained and ball position is correct at impact, with the perfect pivot? My interpretation means that the low side is functioning correctly, the wedges are intact...ok, so...

maybe a timing issue, call it rhythm, I call it the smooth operator.

maybe work on keeping the trail foot down thru impact

maybe the hit impulse, the swing stops at the ball kind of thing as opposed to the thought of full motion swing to finish and allowing centripetal/fugal to do its magic,,,again being the smooth operator. The petal/fugal interruption most likely happens at transition with the hands steppng in too much with the dreaded yank, while the wedges and pivot still perfect, a major killer for most with wild results...

with a my interpretation of "pivot powerd hands controlled pivot",,,letting the hands respond to the motion of the pivot while putting the brain in full control of the pivot, and punch em...

maybe trying to hit and swing...this is something that I've encountered. All can be perfect, but the timing of the right side driving can throw off my timing. So, concentrating on the vertical OR horizontal motion might work as a cure...

are the hands separating, if so monitor pressure point #1. In fact, go thru the checklist of all the pressure points...

and.... "da plane, boss, da plane"...!

 

[birdie_man]

Tom Lehman and early TW are posterboys for "FINDING THE BALL WHILE SWINGING." Not easy to do...Not recommended...Not even POSSIBLE for 99.99999% of the world without their hand/eye talent.

What do you mean?

 

[Bigwill]

I think that he's referring to the fact that both players' heads drop significantly on the downswing.

 

[Perfect Impact]

When you drop your head six inches during the downswing, it is because the downward lunge is necessary to get the club down to the ground where the ball is. If such a lunge does NOT produce a huge divot, a hitting of the big ball before the little ball, THEN WHY DOES TIGER AND LEHMAN DO IT?

Answer: common sense.....THEY WOULD BE TOO HIGH TO HIT THE BALL IF THEY DIDN'T DROP THEIR STERNUM == their clubhead would pass above the ball.

Why would that happen? because body pivot, raising the left shoulder VERY HIGH (look at impact pics from face on of any aggressive swing, esp. Tiger... and see how high his left shoulder is at impact) MEANS THAT THE CLUBHEAD GOT PULLED UP the same amount as the shoulder raised. After the first tee and first hold thins and tops and dribbles, sheer necessity kicks in to the subconscious to STAY DOWN (this is the perception of the golfer...
I looked up.... which is simply not the case in so many whiffs: it is due to the pullaway I just described).



If you hold your left arm straight and the club neutral or uncocked in the left wrist and then raise your shoulder (this is what occurs between setup and impact--the left shoulder goes to a place higher from the ground and ball than it was at setup), the club HAS TO MOVE WITH THE ARM. The length of the shoulder-to-ball IS FIXED (with the exception of the amount of uncocking that occurs).

So if the shoulder has been raised by the pivot, the golfer must guess how far down to dip so that he gets solid impact, instead of whiffing or topping the ball.

Gifted hand-eye-coordination is the only explanation I have for that kind of depth control. Beginners whiff the ball; first tee errors include topping, dribbling....it is simply unrecognized just how much we need either to compensate during the swing, or ACCOMmodate this phenomenon AT ADDRESS (I mention Daly, Donald, again..) so that we do NOT have to guess how far down to dip.

 

[golfbulldog]

THE answer

Alrighty then, my last questions on the Perfect pivot where very tough and nobody could show any illustration towards the answers that have put many a golfer in a tissy.
I understand this is not a perfect answer forum. YET

So lets throw this one out. Many very good golfers have a nice hold, setup and aim to the human eye. They have the perfect pivot backswing with hands and arms in proper position at the top. Then on the downswing they have the perfect downswing pivot. Left wrist flat right wrist bent. Problem, too many thin shos. What's happening and what's the cure. Careful now. Nobody knew the answers for the last one's. So take it slowly.

TGM 5-0

"Regardless of the amount of technical know-how and practice, uneducated hands can nullify it all and never even be suspected. Monitor all three elements of the ( 1-L) by way of the hands - never directly."

Now, George, you know the answer so lets move on and discuss how to implement this teaching...

 

[Perfect Impact]

BD: instead of couching your request in coded terms, implication, and vagueness ("lets move on"), could you be specific about "how to implement this teaching [what teaching?]/

I have posted many times that at setup one accommodates or makes adjustment for the things that occur during the downswing, i.e., that the arms and shoulderblades get stretched forward frm the sternum, "getting longer," and the pullaway of the left shoulder, causing them to "get shorter." The amount of accommodation needed by anyone is determined by trial and error using an unchanging setup procedure as concerns taking up the slack in the arms, achieving a balanced posture, setting the arms atop the pecs and allowing the arms to hang down, and establishing a way of measuring that is consistent. Then without moving the swing center during the swing, directing the path of the hands and clubhead very purposefully along lines deliberately chosen and used by the hands.

What else are you asking?

 

[lmisner1040]

HOT HOT HOT

Hot sauce is it not. Just like my Itallion Stallion perfect pviot. Most all golfers will be under this umbrella, sooner or later depending on when they move up to this level. Can BM take these golfers to the tee and dominate the competition.
BM
Sauce it, with Illustration and clarity.

Lou

 

[golfbulldog]

BD: instead of couching your request in coded terms, implication, and vagueness ("lets move on"), could you be specific about "how to implement this teaching [what teaching?]/

Sorry PI ( george ), I meant to address my answer to LOU. I was being intentionally vague to mimic LOU's vagueness! Only being slightly playful!!

You have given a very fulsome response. Merely trying to bring out his real thoughts through bluff!

Now, regarding "educated hands" i have seen Bobby Schaeffer demonstrate in his video with Billy McKinney- a beautiful pivot but the most delicate top. He explains this through lack of educated hands. I am suggesting the same reason for Lou's question.

The hands do not know where they should be at impact.Lack of impact fix awareness. This may lead to incorrect address alignments with the necessary compensations that you describe in order to get cluhead on ball.

Was not meaning to tease you , just Imisner1040!

 

[Perfect Impact]

My swing philosophy does not use proprioception to return hands to setup position. I am a Gravity Golf fan, where the swing doesn't seek to locate the ball: the EYE does. But the DISTANCE you need to be from the ball (how far down the ss plane of the club) is not as easily discernible, by a long shot, as the axis of the ss plane itself is able to locate it.

So this is why you need to MEASURE AT ADDRESS so that you have the right depth control. I meet very few golfers who just "get up and hit it" without fatting or thinning. Certainly I cannot without measuring. But propriception (muscles remembering where the hands were at IF, or returning to... a position) is not in my bag. The eye finds the ball, not the hands. If HK teaches hand controlled return to IF, then clearly we are on different pages.

Do you know the story of GG/David Lee's discoveries and drills? [Clue: it is how to hit the ball with your practice swing.]

BTW, does Kelley address the role of gravity on the body, the arms, the club, the weight shift, low point as a function of weight shift, etc.? Real people want to know.
Tx.

 

[golfbulldog]

My swing philosophy does not use proprioception to return hands to setup position. I am a Gravity Golf fan, where the swing doesn't seek to locate the ball: the EYE does. But the DISTANCE you need to be from the ball (how far down the ss plane of the club) is not as easily discernible, by a long shot, as the axis of the ss plane itself is able to locate it.

So this is why you need to MEASURE AT ADDRESS so that you have the right depth control. I meet very few golfers who just "get up and hit it" without fatting or thinning. Certainly I cannot without measuring. But propriception (muscles remembering where the hands were at IF, or returning to... a position) is not in my bag. The eye finds the ball, not the hands. If HK teaches hand controlled return to IF, then clearly we are on different pages.

Do you know the story of GG/David Lee's discoveries and drills? [Clue: it is how to hit the ball with your practice swing.]

BTW, does Kelley address the role of gravity on the body, the arms, the club, the weight shift, low point as a function of weight shift, etc.? Real people want to know.
Tx.

Not too familiar with GG / David Lee but had a quick look at his website. He has some interesting testimonials but unlike Brian's website you don't get much info for free!!

Homer/TGM is BIG on measuring impact alignments. They say take grip at impact fix and use impact fix to set the clubface/ ball alignments( 2-J-1). Not only for clubface -ball face angle alignments ( which can vary depending upon which "Hinge action " used ( what the left wrist does from impact to both arms straight)) but also sweetspot-ball alignments. This seems similar to what you describe.

WRT Gravity and Homer Kelley... the only forces he specifically refers to are centrifugal/petal and active force developed by right arm straightening ( swinging and hitting respectively).

BUT whatever forces used his main concern was to feel those forces in correct pressure points ( mainly pp3 for gravity) and direct those forces in correct alignments.

My understanding so far anyway....

 

[Perfect Impact]

There is another universe in the GG discoveries. I like to mention this: there have been brilliant scientists in the world for thousands of years: the early Greeks had a few notables, and through the ages many others. But guess what: even though we have all been subject to gravity on earth forever, no one until the 16th century quantified the idea: an apple fell and the lights went on. It is the same in golf: been around for 600 years, but David Lee is the first person ever to nail the role of gravity on the body, the counterfall (tugofwar between falling backwards and forward "centrifugal" momentum)(centripetal/centrifugal equal and opposite), and on NOT using proprioception to locate the ball.

Baseball players do not! Their eye finds the ball, and the sensors in their skin and the neuromuscular processors tell them where the ss axis of the bat is WITHOUT THEM HAVING THE OPPY FOR AN IMPACT FIX. Michael Jordan mid-air outside the 30 foot line finds the middle of the rim over his back one handed BY EYE. And by processors of infinitely intelligently designed to calculate distance, exertion, angles, etc. DOES HE NEED PHYSICS TO KNOW WHERE to position his elbow during the motion?

These things are where I guess my departure from "TGM is enough" takes root.

My alignments are in my head with great care. I don't lose them if I move my right foot. I am not a victim.

 

[birdie_man]

Not flipping, nor wrong ball position.

Ah ic....didn't see where u said "Left wrist flat, right wrist bent."