Pivot through impact

[golfbulldog]

Did Hogan use his pivot differently through impact...did he avoid snapping his kinetic chain pre impact...did he keep some pivot in reserve to actually get his pivot to square up the clubface for impact and beyond??

He seems tohave alot more hip motion for relatively short hand travel... whereas Ricky Fowler has hardly any hip motion but alot of hand and arm motion...

Comments please. Thanks.

Pivot thrust.wmv - YouTube

 

[Dariusz J.]

A very good and constructive vid and question.

IMO, this touches the very essence of diferences in kinetic sequencing of the golf swing motion. There is a little biomechanical trick to it, i.e. the torso (from hips to shoulders in general) should not literally stop rapidly because it will lead to throwing both arms in front of the body and a crossover release. Observe the difference in Hogan's clubhead angle after impact and compare it to McIllroy's. The trick is that the pivot may still act in 3-D but it seems it stops in 2-D forcing the arms to absorbe energy and pass it fluidly further without the necessity to throw the distal part around and ending the phase of total subduing of their motion to the main body motion without disturbing the flow of the whole chain. I believe there were a lot of posts on Brian's Forum about parametric acceleration - this is a very close subject.

Generally, it is a very simple biophysical concept:

Biokinetic Golf Swing Theory: The Sagittal Plane Compression Concept. Part 5.

Cheers

 

[golfbulldog]

Thanks,Darius. I have read your stuff and agree with some.

Anyone else think that Hogan's pivot is significantly different to most modern pros?

If different, is it too weak a pivot to compete on the modern tour?

If no different, then what might be the reason he was reverred for his ball striking and accuracy?

Thanks.

My 2 cents, actually more like hot air since I have no horse in the race...is that Hogan did not snap his kinetic chain in the way that Ricky Fowler does... not to say that he does not slow his pivot...just that it seems to slow more after impact than before...and yet he was not considered to be short of clubhead speed.

 

[golfbulldog]

hogan pivot through impact - YouTube

Do you know any modern players whose pivot moves as much as Hogan? from when their hands are even with their right (trail) thigh through to when their hands are 6 inches past their left (lead) foot??

Is the pivot driving this ?? Or is it reactive motion ??

To me it looks like it is driving...any thoughts?

 

[Kevin Shields]

I love Hogan but my thoughts I always been to be careful looking at his swing because I wouldnt want to try to do anybody's swing that had some components that made him broke twice and use clubs that no mortal man could attempt to hit. That being said Im not sure what you see differently than alot of modern pivots. Help me understand what it is you see. No braking?

 

[natep]

I love this topic. I think the first video golfbulldog linked shows a very clear difference in how their pivots are functioning through the impact area. It looks like Couples/Fowler have pretty much spent their hip rotation before impact, while Hogan is turning a lot longer and later in the swing. I find it intriguing because Hogan didnt always have that action, if you look at swings from early in his career his pivot looks more like the Couples/Fowler examples.

 

[Richie3Jack]

I think it comes down to the equipment and what the equipment would 'allow for.' You can swing well out to the right with today's modern equipment. Yes, not exactly advisable...but one can do it and play very good golf these days.

Old persimmon woods and tiny blade irons heads? Fuhgetaboutit.

What sticks out to me about Hogan is that according to his clubmaker, Gene Sheets, Hogan had X-Stiff shafts tipped 2 inches in his clubs BEFORE he discovered 'the secret.' That tells me that Hogan was trying to make his equipment so stiff and flat to essentially 'de-hook' the clubs.

Personally, I think Hogan generated a TON of clubhead speed for that equipment. It's just a visual observation...but I think he probably could swing those clubs faster than all of a handful of modern players could swing that equipment. Generating that much clubhead speed and not being able to generate a post impact pivot, to me, spells a recipe for a big path out to the right. You can't get away with that with persimmon and forged blades.

I think over time the super stiff equipment helped strengthen his pivot a little. But I think he just got to the point where he probably thought of something simple like 'let's try and slice the ball' and started rifling straight shot after straight shot. The 1938 swings and his 1946 (early post-secret) have a lot of similarities...except for the way he releases the club and the post impact pivot.

I think Hogan was probably super long, but the super duper stiff shafts held back his distance. I have a couple of clubs with super duper stiff shafts that I experiment with. I can hit them just fine as far as straightness and trajectory, but they lose about 20-30 yards compared to my normal shafts I use.

But today's game is very bomb-n-gouge, hit up on the driver (another thing difficult to do with persimmon), etc.





3JACK

 

[natep]

I can see how the equipment could have had some effect on the swings back then, but Fat Jack turned pro while Hogan was still competing. There had to be some overlap in the equipment Jack learned on vs. the stuff Hogan was using.

EDIT: Perhaps though the stiffness of the shafts was the major factor. I remember Jack writing in "Golf My Way" how he liked moderately whippy shafts in his clubs.

 

[golfbulldog]

Thanks for the comments - I agree with Natep that Hogan made a change (whilst using same stiff gear) from that 1930s swing to his Power Golf Swing (which I think was taken after his 1946 discovery)....

There was very diiferent footwork which I believe is a result of changes in his pivot:

comparison hogan ppt slides.wmv - YouTube

I think the 1930s swing was the one that sent him broke x 2 ...

Kevin , I think the braking begins after impact - that's what I see...

 

[Richie3Jack]

I have no idea how much down or up Nicklaus hit the driver back in the day. I know I have a persimmon that I use about once a month and it's something that risks a sky-ball. And even when I hit one on the screws, it doesn't go very straight. Of course, the modern ball might have something to do with that.

Nicklaus didn't have a big pivot stall and didn't swing the club well out to the right either. Nicklaus' swing and how he released the club is more like Hogan than a modern day player like Fowler or Bubba, IMO. Nicklaus liking whippier shafts than Hogan doesn't shock me. Hogan had a snap release, releasing the clubhead very late in the swing wherease Nicklaus was more random sweep, releasing the clubhead earlier in the swing.

I think it has more to do with the clubhead. Size, CoG location, etc.




3JACK

 

[DCgolf]

Hogan

Hogan started out with a very strong grip to gain distance that he lacked due to his size. Jacobs told me once he actually practiced with a strong grip and weakened it in tournament play? In any case he couldn't make a cup of coffee hooking. So around 1940 he weakened his grip, lengthened his thumb, cupped his left wrist, delayed his release, and over rotated his body through impact. I wouldn't think of stalling his pivot ever occurred to him because one MIGHT turn the ball over- a major no-no to Hogan.

 

[fronesis]

Nice thread.

To me, Hogans hips look much more level through the ball than the other players. I don't know what might cause that or what its effects might be, but that's my limited observation.

It's also worth noting that Hogan himself talks a lot about "firing the hips" in his golf swing. Modern Fundamentals talks about the swing as if it can be broken down as follows: 1) set up correctly; 2) make an on plane backswing; and 3) fire the hips.