plane and speed

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SteveT

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most of the studies agree from top to club point at 9 o'clock that the club's center of mass and the mid-point between the hands are not co-planar - slower speeds - the wagon is still not directly behind us yet....

9 o'clock to impact, the club's COM and the hands become co-planar - faster speeds - the wagon is directly behind us

that's why i think when there is off plane motion, the golfer has something to pull on and create speed for later when they "get on the same plane" - same reason a batter stands the bat up....pivots and the bat falls into plane to strike the baseball

Micheal.... in your opinion, can a golfer subjectively "feel" off plane motions in time to make compensations in a 0.3 sec. downswing?

Can a golfer even determine they are off plane, or does it have to be identified by an outside objective source such as a teacher plus video plus TM/FS plus ???.
 

art

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ART... that's fantastic information!!! :eek::eek::eek:

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that a golfer's kinetic energy can be increased substantially with better dynamic balance between the body segments. Increasing clubhead velocity by 7-9 MPH to a 100 MPH speed within a slightly unbalanced body will result in ~17% increase in kinetic energy after rebalancing. Could you expand on your concept of golfswing "dynamic balance"?

Reviewing your comments in "Ball Speed Magic Number for "big boy" golf" (which I must admit I had difficulty fully understanding), I am intrigued by these sentences:



Rather than me guessing the full meaning of these fertile sentences, could you please expand a bit on it ..... particularly 'Pre Activate' the muscle sling in the rear hip. How do you do that, and how important is it to achieving higher kinetic energy generation?

Also what do you mean by "a few degrees closed hip/pelvic position"? Is that closed to the stance line or is it more flexure in the hip joints? I ask this because in my anecdotal study on only "one" subject (me), I do prefer a closed stance because of my height, but I do occasionally unflex my hips prematurely 'open', which in turn reflexively unflexes my knees, as I attempt to rotate my hips fully. Is this what you are speaking to?

Gratefully your's ... SteveT ....:cool:

Steve,

I am new to this blog 'stuff', but I have read both very constructive and well thought-out responses from you, and also what I felt were very abrupt and possibly damaging comments. HOWEVER, I see this inquiry regarding 'dynamic balance' as sincere, and capable of HELPING many folks as we continue to dialog on my favorite subject, so here goes, regarding your questions.

First, expanding on dynamic balance effects on the golf swing, I see this in three major areas, (1) lower body/pelvis, (2) upper body/torso, and (3) left shoulder complex/arm (especially the gleno-humeral joint and scapula areas). All have dynamic balance AND rhythm/tempo, golf swing affecting characteristics. So, if you 'lose your balance', dynamically, in any of these areas during the downswing, you will very likely generate both undesirable path and velocity errors. The work over the past 5 years points to the possibility that most DAMAGING swing errors are generated, further propagate, and/or diverge from these three areas. So at first, please try adding stability margin JUST to your lower body, and if you have a launch monitor available, post the velocity and dispersion differences you realize.

Next, pre activation is a term and characteristic I borrowed from research papers dedicated to better understanding the force and torque generating capabilities of the human body, while performing golf-like dynamic movements. I am sure you and many other blob readers are familiar with the classical 'stretch-shorten' cycles (SSC), and the velocity dependent nature of the output. Well, it is my research-based (others work), that pre-activation can further enhance the output over and above the SSC capabilities. More simply stated, just get the right hip back further, and its new starting location and pre-activation will favorably affect the torque-generating, and tempo/kinematic sequencing of your swing. If that weren't enough, with better dynamic balance from only this lower body/pelvic area, the antagonistic muscles patiently waiting to DECELERATE the club and body during the follow thru will not fire prematurely because the overall body is STABLE, allowing potential, additional freedom/velocities before ball impact.

Finally, the slightly closed pelvic position is my attempt at describing the easiest way for most golfers to make this CRUCIAL (for dynamic stability) set-up change, but 'taking up the clockwise slack' is also an acceptable description. In your case Steve, I must additionally state that this right(rear) hip back position, and subsequent 'feeling' must exist until impact. We all know that the both hips will open rapidly during the downswing, but as I tried to explain in another blog (Hip Power), for good golf swings, it is imperative that the angular velocity of the right(rear) hip be significantly lower than the left(lead) hip, especially until impact. Additionally, as you said sometimes you find yourself "unflexing" your hips or your knees. In the world of science and engineering, this 'unflexing' creates VERY UNDESIRABLE dynamic uncertainties/deadbands , so please try to minimize/stabilize these motions thru the transition and early downswing.

I hope you are able to try this out and let us know how it worked.

Sincerely,
Art
 
Steve,

I am new to this blog 'stuff', but I have read both very constructive and well thought-out responses from you, and also what I felt were very abrupt and possibly damaging comments. HOWEVER, I see this inquiry regarding 'dynamic balance' as sincere, and capable of HELPING many folks as we continue to dialog on my favorite subject, so here goes, regarding your questions.

First, expanding on dynamic balance effects on the golf swing, I see this in three major areas, (1) lower body/pelvis, (2) upper body/torso, and (3) left shoulder complex/arm (especially the gleno-humeral joint and scapula areas). All have dynamic balance AND rhythm/tempo, golf swing affecting characteristics. So, if you 'lose your balance', dynamically, in any of these areas during the downswing, you will very likely generate both undesirable path and velocity errors. The work over the past 5 years points to the possibility that most DAMAGING swing errors are generated, further propagate, and/or diverge from these three areas. So at first, please try adding stability margin JUST to your lower body, and if you have a launch monitor available, post the velocity and dispersion differences you realize.

Next, pre activation is a term and characteristic I borrowed from research papers dedicated to better understanding the force and torque generating capabilities of the human body, while performing golf-like dynamic movements. I am sure you and many other blob readers are familiar with the classical 'stretch-shorten' cycles (SSC), and the velocity dependent nature of the output. Well, it is my research-based (others work), that pre-activation can further enhance the output over and above the SSC capabilities. More simply stated, just get the right hip back further, and its new starting location and pre-activation will favorably affect the torque-generating, and tempo/kinematic sequencing of your swing. If that weren't enough, with better dynamic balance from only this lower body/pelvic area, the antagonistic muscles patiently waiting to DECELERATE the club and body during the follow thru will not fire prematurely because the overall body is STABLE, allowing potential, additional freedom/velocities before ball impact.

Finally, the slightly closed pelvic position is my attempt at describing the easiest way for most golfers to make this CRUCIAL (for dynamic stability) set-up change, but 'taking up the clockwise slack' is also an acceptable description. In your case Steve, I must additionally state that this right(rear) hip back position, and subsequent 'feeling' must exist until impact. We all know that the both hips will open rapidly during the downswing, but as I tried to explain in another blog (Hip Power), for good golf swings, it is imperative that the angular velocity of the right(rear) hip be significantly lower than the left(lead) hip, especially until impact. Additionally, as you said sometimes you find yourself "unflexing" your hips or your knees. In the world of science and engineering, this 'unflexing' creates VERY UNDESIRABLE dynamic uncertainties/deadbands , so please try to minimize/stabilize these motions thru the transition and early downswing.

I hope you are able to try this out and let us know how it worked.

Sincerely,
Art

Thanks for taking your time and posting this art!

Quick question of clarification in anatomical joint motion terms: Is the presetting of the right hip essentially putting the right femur into slight internal rotation before going into more internal rotation into the backswing? Yet, putting a clockwise motion with the right foot and ground is essentially engaging the external rotator muscles of the hip which would seem to block internal rotation of the hip?

As you can see, I am a little confused and hope you can help because I find your posts very informative. Thanks


In reading your posts for about the 5th or 6th time, I think I get it now--the object is to stabilize the right hip:eek:
 
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art

New
Thanks for taking your time and posting this art!

Quick question of clarification in anatomical joint motion terms: Is the presetting of the right hip essentially putting the right femur into slight internal rotation before going into more internal rotation into the backswing? Yet, putting a clockwise motion with the right foot and ground is essentially engaging the external rotator muscles of the hip which would seem to block internal rotation of the hip?

As you can see, I am a little confused and hope you can help because I find your posts very informative. Thanks


In reading your posts for about the 5th or 6th time, I think I get it now--the point is to stabilize the right hip:eek:

Steve,

There is more to the right hip set-up involving the spine (engine) and the coccyx, so please view the slight right (rear) foot clockwise torque as the 'effect' only of the right hip back starting position (the cause). I have not yet personally measured/analyzed the degree of internal femur rotation during this set-up condition, and at this time believe the right hip's 'position' changes are critical for the set-up, and the differences in internal/external rotation of the hip joints are critical for the dynamic balance during the downswing. Please look at the References in the 'Hip Power' blog, and my response to 'mandrin' in his recent "CP/CF release" blog. This exchange introduces the forward facing dynamics of the torso, arms and club, and the hopeful aft facing and stabilizing forces based on the dynamics of the lower body/pelvis rotation.

Without any doubt Steve, the golf swing CRUCIALLY needs 'integrated dynamic' attention to even have a remote chance of anyone being able to understand what is really happening. I firmly believe that no 2 swings , like snowflakes have the statistical chance of being the same. Why ??, because the calculable degrees of freedom, and ranges and dynamics of motion of ALL the body parts moving during the complicated golf swing total in the millions, just for one person. HELP !!!!!!
 
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SteveT

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Steve,

Why would a golfer have to know they were "not on plane" in a portion of the swing that is non-planar by nature?

Brian... that's what I want to know too!!!!!

Finney spoke about "off plane" and I thought he was talking in terms of a golfer's kinesthetic "feel" ... so I asked him about it in message #21.
 
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