Plane thoughts

[Jono]

Major Crook and Minor Crook</u>

Hi. I've had a look at TGM in the past without really having studied it in detail. I guess all the cross references put me off and Homer's unique (euphamistically speaking) language takes some getting used to. However, I did get a lot out of the book, especially when it came to the geometry of the swing and the swing plane.

I did, however, find Homer's geometry of the swing somewhat incomplete. Let me address some of these in this thread. Please feel free to jump in, agree or disagree, but please let's keep the comments contructive. I'm not here to put down TGM, just to raise some interesting (to me, anyway) points. I'll focus purely on the geometry and not the physics.

Let me just quickly talk about the sweetspot plane. Why did Homer bother introducing the concept of the sweetspot plane? Mandrin showed that it doesn't exist in reality. Well, my guess is that Homer was concerned with the crooked nature of the golf club. The sweetspot is obviously NOT in line with the shaft. He probably instinctively knew this was going to affect the plane of the swing. The distance between the hosel and the sweetspot is about 1 to 1.5 inches. Can this small amount make a difference to the geometry of the swing plane? I guess it could.

In my view, Homer, in concentrating on this small angle difference between the shaft plane and the sweet spot plane, overlooked something more obvious, and IMO more important. As I mentioned, the club is crooked. However, a bigger crook in the golf swing exists somewhere else. There is an ANGLE between the left arm and the club at impact. You might call this accumulator #3 angle. Whatever you want to call it, the left arm is NOT in line with the club at impact in 3D space. This crook, let's call this the MAJOR CROOK, has more implications to the swing plane than the crook in the club itself (let's call this the MINOR CROOK).

Have a look at page 34, 2-K#4 and 2-K#5. For the artists or draftsmen out there, this diagram should cause some concern. The diagrams seem to indicate that the left arm and the club are moving on a COMMON plane during left arm rotation, whilst retaining the angle (the major crook) between the left arm and the club (ie. #3 accumulator angle). This is IMPOSSIBLE. Unless you fully uncock the left wrist and zero out the #3 accumulator angle first, and THEN swivel, you simply can not move the hands and the club on the same plane.

I'll stop here for now. Next post I'll talk about how this out of line condition between the left arm and the club affects the swing plane and how this might affect TGM concepts like Aiming Point and Delivery Line.

 

[MizunoJoe]

"Unless you fully uncock the left wrist and zero out the #3 accumulator angle first, and THEN swivel, you simply can not move the hands and the club on the same plane."

Not even then, because the shaft still rotates around the sweetspot at the extreme case of zero accum #3. Accum #3 HAND roll is NEVER equivalent to LEFT FOREARM roll. The more #3 accum present at impact, the more the left arm must move "inside" or off-line. The sooner the player realizes that the left arm doesn't move on a plane, the sooner he'll understand the only plane that really counts - the sweetspot plane.

 

[EdZ]

The only plane that really counts is the plane on which all force vectors combine for the most efficient transfer of energy to the ball as transmitted via the hands. To the extend that anyone ever can argue for a 'the' way, it is simply the most EFFICIENT way - most importantly in theory, and most practically in application.

 

[Vaako]

quote:Originally posted by Jono

Have a look at page 34, 2-K#4 and 2-K#5. For the artists or draftsmen out there, this diagram should cause some concern. The diagrams seem to indicate that the left arm and the club are moving on a COMMON plane during left arm rotation, whilst retaining the angle (the major crook) between the left arm and the club (ie. #3 accumulator angle).

Disagree,

2-K#5 shows - I'd say clearly - the left arm and club(saft) on different planes. K#4 demonstrates a different aspect of Lever Assembly Motion. Therefore your comments do not apply.


Vaako

 

[Jono]

quote:Originally posted by Vaako

Disagree,

2-K#5 shows - I'd say clearly - the left arm and club(saft) on different planes. K#4 demonstrates a different aspect of Lever Assembly Motion. Therefore your comments do not apply.


Vaako

We'll agree to disagree on this one. You take that drawing to any draftsman, and he'll scratch his head. The perpective on 2-K#5 is completely wrong and it is less than clear. However, I don't want to nitpick on something like this, so let's move on.

 

[Jono]

quote:Originally posted by MizunoJoe
The more #3 accum present at impact, the more the left arm must move "inside" or off-line.

Very good observation. Does Homer directly comment on this? Or is he implying it with his sweet spot plane?

 

[Jono]

quote:Originally posted by EdZ

The only plane that really counts is the plane on which all force vectors combine for the most efficient transfer of energy to the ball as transmitted via the hands. To the extend that anyone ever can argue for a 'the' way, it is simply the most EFFICIENT way - most importantly in theory, and most practically in application.

Very good point, but which plane is that? The Turned Shoulder Plane? The Elbow Plane?

 

[Jono]

Hand Plane</u>

Let me continue on.

As I said, IMO, the major crook in the golf swing is the angle formed between the left arm and the club (#3 accumulator angle). This affects the swing plane more than the minor crook (ie. the crook in the club itself).

Here's a diagram from a program called "Skillcheck". I have used this because it allows multiple images to be shown at once.

Have a look at the movement of the hands from the top down to release point (just before swivel). The hands move down on a plane, but this is NOT a plane out to the target line. It is directed somewhat INSIDE the target line. I'll call this the HAND PLANE.

I have drawn a red line for the plane of movement of the left wrist. This is the hinge point between the upper lever (left arm) and the lower lever (the club). However, if you feel that the pressure point #3 is more important, then you can plot that instead. I would urge you to get any pro on video, down the line view, and plot the path of the hands from the top down to release point. Most of the pros I've looked at have the hands moving on a plane that is directed well INSIDE the target line. The Skillcheck sequence shows that the base of this plane of hand motion (hand plane) is approximately 2/3 of the way from the player's toes to the targetline. This seems to be approximately true for majority of the pros.

This raises the point, if the hands are not moving on a plane to the targetline, where should the aiming point be? Since you are directing the hands towards the aiming point, it can't be on the targetline, can it? The above diagram seems to indicate that the aiming point should be well INSIDE the targetline, on the base of the hand plane.

Let me pause here. I'll continue later with how the club moves relative to the hand plane and then talk a bit about the release swivel. I will also touch on club face orientation relative to the hand plane.

 

[MizunoJoe]

quote:Originally posted by Jono

quote:Originally posted by MizunoJoe
The more #3 accum present at impact, the more the left arm must move "inside" or off-line.

Very good observation. Does Homer directly comment on this? Or is he implying it with his sweet spot plane?

I don't believe that HK mentions it, but tracing the plane line with the "sweetspot shaft" forces this 3 dimensional curved path of the hands to the inside. Incidently, the term for this, which is called
"Throwout", would be more appropriately named "Throwin".

 

[MizunoJoe]

quote:Originally posted by Jono

Hand Plane</u>

This raises the point, if the hands are not moving on a plane to the targetline, where should the aiming point be? Since you are directing the hands towards the aiming point, it can't be on the targetline, can it? The above diagram seems to indicate that the aiming point should be well INSIDE the targetline, on the base of the hand plane.

Let me pause here. I'll continue later with how the club moves relative to the hand plane and then talk a bit about the release swivel. I will also touch on club face orientation relative to the hand plane.

Either the clubhead(sweetspot) moves on a plane from the top through separation or the hands do - not both. The player had better make sure that it's the sweetspot.

 

[Vaako]

quote:Originally posted by Vaako

Disagree,

2-K#5 shows - I'd say clearly - the left arm and club(saft) on different planes. K#4 demonstrates a different aspect of Lever Assembly Motion. Therefore your comments do not apply.


Vaako

- Jono in italics -


We'll agree to disagree on this one.

Cool - this would have been a gracefull exit point.


You take that drawing to any draftsman, and he'll scratch his head.

You can provide the name of the said craftsman? Otherwise it's just you trying to invoke the authority of a professional draftsman.


The perpective on 2-K#5 is completely wrong and it is less than clear.

No - I can easily read 2-K#5, both content and perspective. This means your cathegorical statements are wrong. It may appear that way to you, but this doesn't mean you can generalize it to rest of the humankind.

Unless I'm a demon and also the only one who can read 2-K#5.


However, I don't want to nitpick on something like this, so let's move on.

I lost the nitpick part here. You read K#5 wrong and based your comments on that. Hence, we are looking at a rather important point.

But - by all means - let's move forward.



Vaako

 

[Vaako]

quote:Originally posted by Jono

Hand Plane</u>

Let me continue on.

As I said, IMO, the major crook in the golf swing is the angle formed between the left arm and the club (#3 accumulator angle). This affects the swing plane more than the minor crook (ie. the crook in the club itself).

Here's a diagram from a program called "Skillcheck". I have used this because it allows multiple images to be shown at once.

Have a look at the movement of the hands from the top down to release point (just before swivel). The hands move down on a plane, but this is NOT a plane out to the target line. It is directed somewhat INSIDE the target line. I'll call this the HAND PLANE.

I have drawn a red line for the plane of movement of the left wrist. This is the hinge point between the upper lever (left arm) and the lower lever (the club). However, if you feel that the pressure point #3 is more important, then you can plot that instead. I would urge you to get any pro on video, down the line view, and plot the path of the hands from the top down to release point. Most of the pros I've looked at have the hands moving on a plane that is directed well INSIDE the target line. The Skillcheck sequence shows that the base of this plane of hand motion (hand plane) is approximately 2/3 of the way from the player's toes to the targetline. This seems to be approximately true for majority of the pros.

This raises the point, if the hands are not moving on a plane to the targetline, where should the aiming point be? Since you are directing the hands towards the aiming point, it can't be on the targetline, can it? The above diagram seems to indicate that the aiming point should be well INSIDE the targetline, on the base of the hand plane.

Let me pause here. I'll continue later with how the club moves relative to the hand plane and then talk a bit about the release swivel. I will also touch on club face orientation relative to the hand plane.

The red line doesn't appear to track any point in the figure. Can you highlight the left wrist?


Vaako

 

[Jono]

Club Face Orientation</u>

Let me quickly talk about how the club face orientation relates to the Hand Plane from the top of the backswing to release point (where the club is parallel to the ground and the swivel starts). I'll talk about the release interval (ie. release point to impact) later.

Many people have the perception that the back of the left hand has rotated 90 degrees relative to the plane so that the palm of the left hand is facing the plane. I don't believe this to be the case.

Have a look at down the line pic of a pro's downswing when his hands are down to about waist level and the clubhead is up near shoulder level. Have a look at the picture of Appleby in this position below (leftmost pic).

IF the back of the left hand and the clubface was turned 90 degrees relative to the plane (with the palm of the left hand facing the plane), then you should NOT be able to see the clubface nor the back of the left hand at this point. You should only be able to see the leading edge of the club and the blade of the left hand. However, you CAN see the club face (BTW, when I say club face and its orientation, what I mean is the plane formed by the leading edge and the shaft, as if the club had 0 degree loft). Furthermore, you can also see the back of his left hand.

Let me illustrate a different geometric model for the club face orientation. Instead of picturing the back of the left hand ON the plane, picture a flat left wrist that is oriented at a shallow angle to the plane. As you can see from the Skillcheck sequence in the previous post, the left shoulder does NOT lie on the Hand Plane. It lies ABOVE it. So picture a shallow cone, like an umbrella, with the left shoulder as the tip of the umbrella and the hands tracing the outer rim. The back of the left hand would lie on the surface of the umbrella. Have a look at the following picture.

The red circle is the left shoulder. I know the left shoulder moves during the downswing, but to simplify things, let's imagine it stays still and forms the tip of the umbrella.

The different shades of blue is to show the surface of the umbrella. It is on this surface, NOT the surface of the inclined plane (be it hand plane, turned shoulder plane, or whatever), that the back of the left hand should lie, from the top of the backswing to the release point. This allows the back of the left wrist to be flat and for the left shoulder to lie above the plane.

You can see how by the time the hands have come down to the release point, the toe of the club would be pointing up and the club face ready to undergo horizontal hinging motion. This umbrella model of the back of the left hand and the club face might also explain Brian's "twist away" move.

Let me stop here and I'll next move onto the club shaft plane.

 

[Jono]

quote:Originally posted by Vaako


I lost the nitpick part here. You read K#5 wrong and based your comments on that. Hence, we are looking at a rather important point.

2-K#5 is a diagram. No reading required. Why don't you get two blocks of wood, put a hinge pin as shown and see what the two levers look like when they have this "vertical wrist motion" with "left wrist flat, level". Put the blocks of wood in the position shown in the diagram and take a photo. If you can get it to look like the diagram, I'll "gracefully" concede this point.

 

[Jono]

quote:Originally posted by Vaako

The red line doesn't appear to track any point in the figure. Can you highlight the left wrist?


Vaako

The red line is a line of best fit from the top of the backswing to release point. It actually moves steeper initially and flattens out, so it's a slightly curved plane. I was simplifying the plane of movement of the hands to show that they don't move out towards the targetline. There is more DOWN than OUT in the down & out motion of the hands, especially in the early stages of the downswing. That is the main point I was trying to make.

You can do the same sort of plotting to any pro's hand motion from the top of the backswing to release point. You can use the left wrist, or the left hand, or if you want to be precise, you might even want to use the #3 pressure point. If the #3 pressure point is directing the sweet spot towards the aiming point on the target line from the top of the backswing, then the #3 pressure point should move on a plane towards the target line. From the very top of the backswing to impact.

 

[Burner]

quote:jono:

I have drawn a red line for the plane of movement of the left wrist.

jono,

It seems to me that all of the joints in your figure are highlighted in green, including the left wrist unless I am very much mistaken, in which event your red line does not follow the path of the left wrist.

A straight line drawn (delivery path,angle of approach, w.h.y) which does follow the path of the left wrist would seem to indicate that it would meet the clubface at the point of impact.

I may be mistaken again, but wasn't it Mr Hogan who used an analogy of hitting the ball with the bone where his left wrist joins the hand.

 

[vandal]

My head hurts.

 

[EdZ]

quote:Originally posted by Jono

Hand Plane</u>

Let me continue on.

As I said, IMO, the major crook in the golf swing is the angle formed between the left arm and the club (#3 accumulator angle). This affects the swing plane more than the minor crook (ie. the crook in the club itself).

Here's a diagram from a program called "Skillcheck". I have used this because it allows multiple images to be shown at once.

Have a look at the movement of the hands from the top down to release point (just before swivel). The hands move down on a plane, but this is NOT a plane out to the target line. It is directed somewhat INSIDE the target line. I'll call this the HAND PLANE.

I have drawn a red line for the plane of movement of the left wrist. This is the hinge point between the upper lever (left arm) and the lower lever (the club). However, if you feel that the pressure point #3 is more important, then you can plot that instead. I would urge you to get any pro on video, down the line view, and plot the path of the hands from the top down to release point. Most of the pros I've looked at have the hands moving on a plane that is directed well INSIDE the target line. The Skillcheck sequence shows that the base of this plane of hand motion (hand plane) is approximately 2/3 of the way from the player's toes to the targetline. This seems to be approximately true for majority of the pros.

This raises the point, if the hands are not moving on a plane to the targetline, where should the aiming point be? Since you are directing the hands towards the aiming point, it can't be on the targetline, can it? The above diagram seems to indicate that the aiming point should be well INSIDE the targetline, on the base of the hand plane.

Let me pause here. I'll continue later with how the club moves relative to the hand plane and then talk a bit about the release swivel. I will also touch on club face orientation relative to the hand plane.

This reminds me very much of a post I made on FGI many years ago.

 

[Vaako]

quote:Originally posted by Jono

quote:Originally posted by Vaako

The red line doesn't appear to track any point in the figure. Can you highlight the left wrist?


Vaako

The red line is a line of best fit from the top of the backswing to release point. It actually moves steeper initially and flattens out, so it's a slightly curved plane. I was simplifying the plane of movement of the hands to show that they don't move out towards the targetline. There is more DOWN than OUT in the down & out motion of the hands, especially in the early stages of the downswing. That is the main point I was trying to make.

This would be the plane shift from turned shoulder plane to elbow plane per 10-7-C.

quote:Originally posted by Jono
You can do the same sort of plotting to any pro's hand motion from the top of the backswing to release point. You can use the left wrist, or the left hand, or if you want to be precise, you might even want to use the #3 pressure point. If the #3 pressure point is directing the sweet spot towards the aiming point on the target line from the top of the backswing, then the #3 pressure point should move on a plane towards the target line. From the very top of the backswing to impact.

This is how it should work w/ no-shift downswings.

You have a plane shift included in your diagram. After the shift, aiming w/ #3 should again work fine.

I don't remember what Homer said about aiming during the shift - my take is you can't.



Vaako

 

[Vaako]

quote:Originally posted by Jono

quote:Originally posted by Vaako


I lost the nitpick part here. You read K#5 wrong and based your comments on that. Hence, we are looking at a rather important point.

2-K#5 is a diagram. No reading required. Why don't you get two blocks of wood, put a hinge pin as shown and see what the two levers look like when they have this "vertical wrist motion" with "left wrist flat, level". Put the blocks of wood in the position shown in the diagram and take a photo. If you can get it to look like the diagram, I'll "gracefully" concede this point.

"To read a diagram" should be correct use of english, no?

Since diagram is "1 : a graphic design that explains rather than represents; *" you may be asking for too much in way of photorealism. Also, no need to concede anything. If it doesn't work for you, it doesn't work for you.



Vaako

* Merriam-Webster