Plane thoughts

[Vaako]

quote:Originally posted by EdZ

quote:Originally posted by Jono

Hand Plane</u>

Let me continue on.

As I said, IMO, the major crook in the golf swing is the angle formed between the left arm and the club (#3 accumulator angle). This affects the swing plane more than the minor crook (ie. the crook in the club itself).

Here's a diagram from a program called "Skillcheck". I have used this because it allows multiple images to be shown at once.

Have a look at the movement of the hands from the top down to release point (just before swivel). The hands move down on a plane, but this is NOT a plane out to the target line. It is directed somewhat INSIDE the target line. I'll call this the HAND PLANE.

I have drawn a red line for the plane of movement of the left wrist. This is the hinge point between the upper lever (left arm) and the lower lever (the club). However, if you feel that the pressure point #3 is more important, then you can plot that instead. I would urge you to get any pro on video, down the line view, and plot the path of the hands from the top down to release point. Most of the pros I've looked at have the hands moving on a plane that is directed well INSIDE the target line. The Skillcheck sequence shows that the base of this plane of hand motion (hand plane) is approximately 2/3 of the way from the player's toes to the targetline. This seems to be approximately true for majority of the pros.

This raises the point, if the hands are not moving on a plane to the targetline, where should the aiming point be? Since you are directing the hands towards the aiming point, it can't be on the targetline, can it? The above diagram seems to indicate that the aiming point should be well INSIDE the targetline, on the base of the hand plane.

Let me pause here. I'll continue later with how the club moves relative to the hand plane and then talk a bit about the release swivel. I will also touch on club face orientation relative to the hand plane.

This reminds me very much of a post I made on FGI many years ago.

Do you have a link available?



Vaako

 

[EdZ]

quote:Originally posted by Vaako

Do you have a link available?

Vaako

A quick search at FGI shows that posts that were around before they moved to new software were not carried over fully and links are now dead. Cut off seems to be around 2003, and that post was around 2000. Most of the concepts can be found in my post on Lynn's site, under the drills section however. Perhaps they have some archives to search.

Funny, I remember quite a few folks getting worked up when I described the 'hands plane' (not the same as Homer's definition, but basically what Jono is bringing up here, the path and plane the pressure points travel - the wheel rim).

 

[Jono]

quote:Originally posted by Burner
jono,

It seems to me that all of the joints in your figure are highlighted in green, including the left wrist unless I am very much mistaken, in which event your red line does not follow the path of the left wrist.

A straight line drawn (delivery path,angle of approach, w.h.y) which does follow the path of the left wrist would seem to indicate that it would meet the clubface at the point of impact.

I may be mistaken again, but wasn't it Mr Hogan who used an analogy of hitting the ball with the bone where his left wrist joins the hand.

Burner,

The red line I've drawn is a line of best fit. You are right in saying that it doesn't exactly follow the path of the left wrist. The hands and the left wrist seem to follow a slightly curved plane during the downswing.

Have a look at this revised diagram. The left wrist initially drops sharply (red), then flattens out (yellow), and then flattens out more (light blue). You can't actually see it in this picture, but as you release the club from the release point to impact, the left wrist actually COMES IN off the hand plane. (MJ has already mentioned this and I'll bring it up again later).

The initial red line (hand plane) in the other post was a "summary" or an approximation to show that the hands do not travel on a plane towards the ball from the top. You might say, "well, this is plane shift". That's one way of looking at it. I see it as a geometric necessity due to the Major Crook in the golf swing. Or accumulator #3 angle, if you like. The more of this angle you want to have through impact, more vertically you have to drop the hands during the early stages of the downswing.

 

[Jono]

quote:Originally posted by Vaako

"To read a diagram" should be correct use of english, no?

Since diagram is "1 : a graphic design that explains rather than represents; *" you may be asking for too much in way of photorealism. Also, no need to concede anything. If it doesn't work for you, it doesn't work for you.



Vaako

* Merriam-Webster

You don't need photorealism to get the perspective correct. Homer's perspective is wrong in that diagram. If you need distorted perspective to get the message across, fine.

I don't want to get in a slanging match looking up dictionaries and nitpicking. All I ask is a bit of common sense and an open mind. I'm presenting some of my thoughts here because Brian seems to be open minded in his approach and teaching of TGM.

 

[Jono]

quote:Originally posted by Vaako

This would be the plane shift from turned shoulder plane to elbow plane per 10-7-C.

...

This is how it should work w/ no-shift downswings.

You have a plane shift included in your diagram. After the shift, aiming w/ #3 should again work fine.

I don't remember what Homer said about aiming during the shift - my take is you can't.



Vaako

Categorizing swings into single and double shift is a TGM way of looking at it. I've plotted many pros and they show varying degrees of this vertical drop followed by flattening out.

Homer defines the elbow plane (10-6-A):

"Where the right elbow touches the waist is the reference point used for this Plane Angle."

Many pros show a "plane shift" without getting down to this elbow plane as per Homer Kelley.

Again, I would challenge you to actually plot out the plane of the pros' hand motions during the downswing. You can do this on your TV screen using a whiteboard marker. Most of the pros that I've looked at and plotted show a more vertical downward motion of the hands than what is indicated by the "single shift" swing (10-7-B).

 

[Vaako]

quote:Originally posted by Jono

Categorizing swings into single and double shift is a TGM way of looking at it.

It is, though Homer lists 8 different plane angle variations.

quote:Originally posted by Jono
I've plotted many pros and they show varying degrees of this vertical drop followed by flattening out.

Homer defines the elbow plane (10-6-A):

"Where the right elbow touches the waist is the reference point used for this Plane Angle."

Many pros show a "plane shift" without getting down to this elbow plane as per Homer Kelley.

Again, I would challenge you to actually plot out the plane of the pros' hand motions during the downswing. You can do this on your TV screen using a whiteboard marker. Most of the pros that I've looked at and plotted show a more vertical downward motion of the hands than what is indicated by the "single shift" swing (10-7-B).

1. I've done the plotting thing - no need to challenge me, I'm not that retarded.

2. Plotting isn't as easy as you imply. It's been discussed on this board before.

3. Most pros do exactly as they please in regards to plane shifts and their chosen plane(s) in their swings.

4. 10-7-B has no downstroke plane shift.


Vaako

 

[Jono]

quote:Originally posted by Vaako
1. I've done the plotting thing - no need to challenge me, I'm not that retarded.

Good. I'm sure you are not retarded. Which pros did you plot?

quote:
2. Plotting isn't as easy as you imply. It's been discussed on this board before.

Plotting is very easy. Interpreting it is tricky due to camera angle. Ideally, the camera should be far enough away, and directly behind the line of the player's hands at address and the camera should have high shutter speed. However, there are many good down the line footages of pros to give you an idea of how the hands are moving during the downswing. Some data is better than no data.

quote:
4. 10-7-B has no downstroke plane shift.

I never indicated otherwise. Now, out of the pros you have plotted, who had this single shift variation (10-7-B)? ie. no downswing plane shift.

 

[Vaako]

quote:Originally posted by Jono

quote:Originally posted by Vaako

"To read a diagram" should be correct use of english, no?

Since diagram is "1 : a graphic design that explains rather than represents; *" you may be asking for too much in way of photorealism. Also, no need to concede anything. If it doesn't work for you, it doesn't work for you.



Vaako

* Merriam-Webster

You don't need photorealism to get the perspective correct. Homer's perspective is wrong in that diagram. If you need distorted perspective to get the message across, fine.

Maybe you could offer some proof that perspective is wrong - so far it's all talk.

quote:Originally posted by Jono
I don't want to get in a slanging match looking up dictionaries and nitpicking. All I ask is a bit of common sense and an open mind. I'm presenting some of my thoughts here because Brian seems to be open minded in his approach and teaching of TGM.

Correct me, if I'm reading this wrong - you mean, you don't want me to embarass you anymore via dictionary use?


Vaako

 

[Vaako]

quote:Originally posted by Jono

quote:Originally posted by Vaako
1. I've done the plotting thing - no need to challenge me, I'm not that retarded.

Good. I'm sure you are not retarded. Which pros did you plot?

None with a whiteboard marker. Isn't this your definition of plotting?



Vaako

 

[Vaako]

quote:Originally posted by Jono

quote:Originally posted by Vaako
4. 10-7-B has no downstroke plane shift.

I never indicated otherwise. Now, out of the pros you have plotted, who had this single shift variation (10-7-B)? ie. no downswing plane shift.

This is a flat out lie. Indicate a downswing plane shift was exactly what you did.

Is this word play with plotting leading to somewere? Are you - I'm trying to apply some common sense you so want to have - asking did I find any pro doing the 10-7-B single shift? If so, quit trolling and just say so.


Vaako

 

[Jono]

quote:Originally posted by Vaako

quote:Originally posted by Jono

quote:Originally posted by Vaako
4. 10-7-B has no downstroke plane shift.

I never indicated otherwise. Now, out of the pros you have plotted, who had this single shift variation (10-7-B)? ie. no downswing plane shift.

This is a flat out lie. Indicate a downswing plane shift was exactly what you did.

Is this word play with plotting leading to somewere? Are you - I'm trying to apply some common sense you so want to have - asking did I find any pro doing the 10-7-B single shift? If so, quit trolling and just say so.


Vaako

Dude, calm down. Why raise your blood pressure whilst on the internet? You can do that at work.

I never said 10-7-B had any downswing plane shift. However, Homer himself called this variation SINGLE SHIFT (I guess talking about the shift during the backswing). I was merely using the term Homer gave to this variation.

You are so busy looking for a fight that you don't seem to read other people's posts very carefully.

quote:None with a whiteboard marker. Isn't this your definition of plotting?

I don't care whether you do it with a whiteboard marker or using the most sophisticated 3D mapping technology that money can buy. Which pros did you plot? Simple question.

quote:Maybe you could offer some proof that perspective is wrong - so far it's all talk.

Do you want me to teach you how to use perspective? As I suggested before, make yourself a set of levers using long flat pieces of wood, line it up as per the diagram, and take a photo. Camera doesn't lie. Don't worry about the photographic detail, just pay attention to the perspective. If you can get the perspective in the photo to look like that shown in the diagram, I'll concede that Homer's use of perspective is correct.

quote:Correct me, if I'm reading this wrong - you mean, you don't want me to embarass you anymore via dictionary use?

Man, if quoting from a dictionary is supposed to "embarass" me, this discussion is sinking fast.

BTW, whilst you've got the dictionary in your hand, look up EMBARRASS ... []

 

[Vaako]

quote:Originally posted by Jono

quote:Originally posted by Vaako

quote:Originally posted by Jono

quote:Originally posted by Vaako
4. 10-7-B has no downstroke plane shift.

I never indicated otherwise. Now, out of the pros you have plotted, who had this single shift variation (10-7-B)? ie. no downswing plane shift.

This is a flat out lie. Indicate a downswing plane shift was exactly what you did.

Is this word play with plotting leading to somewere? Are you - I'm trying to apply some common sense you so want to have - asking did I find any pro doing the 10-7-B single shift? If so, quit trolling and just say so.


Vaako

Dude, calm down. Why raise your blood pressure whilst on the internet? You can do that at work.

I never said 10-7-B had any downswing plane shift. However, Homer himself called this variation SINGLE SHIFT (I guess talking about the shift during the backswing). I was merely using the term Homer gave to this variation.

You are so busy looking for a fight that you don't seem to read other people's posts very carefully.

quote:None with a whiteboard marker. Isn't this your definition of plotting?

I don't care whether you do it with a whiteboard marker or using the most sophisticated 3D mapping technology that money can buy. Which pros did you plot? Simple question.

quote:Maybe you could offer some proof that perspective is wrong - so far it's all talk.

Do you want me to teach you how to use perspective? As I suggested before, make yourself a set of levers using long flat pieces of wood, line it up as per the diagram, and take a photo. Camera doesn't lie. Don't worry about the photographic detail, just pay attention to the perspective. If you can get the perspective in the photo to look like that shown in the diagram, I'll concede that Homer's use of perspective is correct.

quote:Correct me, if I'm reading this wrong - you mean, you don't want me to embarass you anymore via dictionary use?

Man, if quoting from a dictionary is supposed to "embarass" me, this discussion is sinking fast.

BTW, whilst you've got the dictionary in your hand, look up EMBARRASS ... []

I guess by now it's obvious enough that you are all talk w/ liberal amounts BS in the mix. Might be fun to keep this going, but this train seems to be heading towards Lamesville and weekend is calling.

If you come w/ something dazzling or totally off-the-wall someone else will no doubt play w/ you.

You did post as Horton in the good old days - didn't you?


Vaako

- Els, Duval, Eldrick, Hogan, Snead, Parnevik, Bjoern, Weir, Immelman

 

[MizunoJoe]

Vaako,

I assure you that Jono is not Horton.

 

[Jono]

Shaft Orientation and The Release Plane</u>

Let me quickly talk a bit about how the shaft orientates itself on the downswing. A lot of golfers think that the direction of the shaft is the direction of the plane. So, if the butt of the club is not pointing at the target line at any stage of the downswing, you are not "on plane". However, there are many pros whose shaft, during the early stages of the downswing, points inside the target line and there are many pros whose shaft points outside the target line.

What really matters is the plane of MOTION. And what matters is the plane of motion when things are moving at high speeds. The clubhead is moving the fastest near the bottom of the swing (ie. 2nd half of the downswing) so that's where the concept of the swing plane matters the most.

Have a look at the following diagram.

The red line I've drawn in this diagram is the plane of motion of the clubhead at the bottom half of the swing (ie. when the clubhead is moving the fastest). This is the plane of centrifugal pull when the centrifugal force is the greatest. Notice how the club orientates itself on this plane. This diagram is not precise enough to differentiate shaft plane vs sweetspot plane, but nevertheless it is clear that the club lies on this plane during the 2nd half of the downswing period. I will call this plane THE RELEASE PLANE.

Now, have a look at the yellow arrow. It indicates how the clubhead moves from the top of the backswing towards the release plane. This, IMO, is a critical move as a golfer changes direction. The flattening out of the shaft as you go from backswing to downswing, and the clubhead seeking the release plane. From the top, the hands move DOWN, not towards the targetline, but towards the release plane. (ie. more DOWN than OUT)

OK. Well, isn't this simply Double Shift variation where the golfer shifts from the turned shoulder plane, down to elbow plane?

Quote TGM page 10-6-A ELBOW PLANE
"Where the Right Elbow touches the waist is the reference point used for this Plane Angle. It is the "flattest" normal Plane that will still allow the Right Forearm to be On Plane during Impact" (bold by Jono)

This seems to indicate that the definition of the Elbow plane is established by the player's anatomy and how he sets up to the ball. Players who seem to drop down to this elbow plane include Nick Faldo and Tom Kite. However, there are players who definitely show a plane shift, but not quite down to this elbow plane. eg. Davis Love III.

Further quote from TGM re ELBOW PLANE.

"The Elbow Plane allows maximum #3 Accumulator requiring earlier Release per 6-N-0"

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but Homer seems to be saying that you can keep a good angle between the left arm and the club (what I called MAJOR CROOK in the swing) through impact if you release the club along this flattish plane. Indeed, players such as Faldo and Kite have a lot of #3 accumulator angle at impact. Davis Love has some angle also, but less. The player who has the least accumulator #3 angle at impact that I've seen is Moe Norman. He stands far away from the ball with his hands high at impact, where he has almost zeroed out the #3 accumulator angle. Out of all the pros I've looked at, he comes closest to having no plane shift during the downswing. His hands don't have to move down to the release plane from the top because his hands are ALREADY on the release plane at the top. He flattens the club during transition, but from there, it's pretty much down and out towards the target line.

So, to me, how much plane shift you undergo depends on how high you have your hands at the top and how much #3 accumulator angle you want to keep through impact. If you stand real close to the ball with the hands low at impact (ie. lots of #3 accumulator angle) and have a high hand position at the top (eg. Jim Furyk) then you'll have a lot of plane shift. If you stand far from the ball with your hands high at impact, and have a lowish hand position at the top (eg. Moe Norman) you'll have very little plane shift.

Just out of interest, have a look at the light blue arrows in the above diagram. It shows the direction of right elbow movement. Notice how the right elbow does not stay on the same plane during the downswing. It first moves DOWN below the release plane and then OUT towards the release plane. Another reason why I don't really like the term "Elbow Plane".

The main point of this post is that each player has his own "release plane" depending on his anatomy, set up posture, and also how much #3 accumulator angle he wants to keep through impact. I think it's important for the golfer to realise this and practice many partial shots (pitch shots) to FEEL where his release plane is. In the full swing, from the top, you have to make the appropriate motion to get down to this release plane.

 

[Tom Bartlett]

parallax

 

[Jono]

quote:Originally posted by Tom Bartlett

parallax

Hi Tom. Do you think everything I've said is due to parallax errors? If not, which part?

What do you think about the concept of the Umbrella Plane and how that might tie into Brian's "Twist Away" move?

Thanks.

 

[Jono]

Releasing with the Major Crook</u>

This is my last long post on this thread. I can see that some, like Vaako, think it's a load of BS. That's OK. I was just presenting some of my ideas in a forum where "forum members can discuss and debate the mechanics of the golf stroke and how best to teach, learn and implement them."

If you look at how the pros release the club, you can see how the left shoulder, left wrist and the left hand move IN and UP through the release period as the clubhead moves DOWN and OUT. Part of the reason is that the three levers (neck to left shoulder, left arm, club) are not in line with each other at impact. If all three levers were on the same plane, you'd see the left shoulder and left wrist move UP the plane as the club moves DOWN the plane to impact. This effect is independent of the rotation of the club face.

There is, however, another factor. Again we go back to the Major Crook of the club. The more Accumulator #3 angle you want to keep at impact, the more the left wrist must move IN as the club face rotates. MizunoJoe touched on this before, but have a look at this diagram.

Note how the left shoulder (light blue arrow) and the left wrist (yellow arrow) move UP and IN as the clubhead (red arrow) moves DOWN and OUT. Note also how the left wrist moves on the flatter plane (more IN then UP) than the clubhead plane (ie. release plane). The more accumulator #3 angle you have at impact, the more the left wrist must move IN. Because the left arm and the club are out of line at impact, they can not be moving on the same plane as they undergo rotation about the longitudinal axis (ie. swivel). The left wrist needs to "get out of way" for the clubhead. Part of this is achieved by the pivot through impact (or the "wallop" if you like) and part of it is achieved by having the left arm close to your chest through impact. If I put my right hand under the left armpit and swing the club with the left arm only, and I do so whilst using the accumulator #3 (ie. keeping the Major Crook), then I feel the pressure in the left armpit INCREASE coming into impact. The pressure only releases well after impact.

OK. That's it. These are some plane concepts I've been pondering about.