Player and Instructor

[TheScotsman]

Hello everyone,

I am new to the BM forum and am looking forward to contributing to this board. I am an active member at another forum (for a total of 5 weeks) but have spent half of my time in trouble for disagreeing with some of the moderators' comments.

I thoroughly enjoy discussing the golf swing and playing tactics and I hope my personal views don't offend as much as they seem to have at this other forum. I have noticed that replies to posts here tend to be more on subject and the members have a very wide and varied view of the game.

 

[magicmarker]

Welcome! Just so you know disagreement and debate about the golf swing are welcomed here, even encouraged. Everyone learns more when issues are thoroughly debated in an open forum. Just be careful who you challenge because you won't get banned or put in the penalty box, you're more likely to get burned by a bunch of facts and research papers...

 

[TheScotsman]

you're more likely to get burned by a bunch of facts and research papers...

Thanks for the welcome!

I enjoy discussing golf but I find the likes of 'TGM', 'The Science of Golf' or 'Search for the Perfect Swing' aren't really for 99.99% of golfers but for the very few who want to digest such facts. I have studied the golf swing and have avoided getting too scientific. Like everyone I want to know how to create and explain good shot making but when the explanations go way over my head and after three or four attempts to read or listen to them, this remains the case, then I'll try to find a plain English explanation.

I am hoping most replies will be like yours, on topic and not referring to a link with some stock explanation.

 

[Kevin Shields]

As long as you toe the line and agree with everything that we say you'll be fine. Just kidding, welcome and looking forward to your contributions.

 

[TheScotsman]

As long as you toe the line and agree with everything that we say you'll be fine. Just kidding, welcome and looking forward to your contributions.

You're all going to have to hold onto your briefs, I intend to turn the thermostat up a touch. I'm also kidding, thanks for the welcome.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Scots,

Had to edit your post. No names of other forums here.

Thanks,

BMANZ

 

[TheScotsman]

Sorry, I didn't realise but I totally understand.

 

[SteveT]

Do I understand that you are both a "player" and an "instructor"..?

In my view, players use and depend on subjective feedback feeel... while an instructor uses objective observational analytics.

Do you believe that somebody who is an "instructor", can instruct themselves successfully... or do they wisely seek out external objective advice?


You don't see dentists working on their own cavities ....

 

[coach]

Thanks for the welcome!

I enjoy discussing golf but I find the likes of 'TGM', 'The Science of Golf' or 'Search for the Perfect Swing' aren't really for 99.99% of golfers but for the very few who want to digest such facts. I have studied the golf swing and have avoided getting too scientific. Like everyone I want to know how to create and explain good shot making but when the explanations go way over my head and after three or four attempts to read or listen to them, this remains the case, then I'll try to find a plain English explanation.

Could not agree with you more

 

[SteveT]

Thanks for the welcome!

I enjoy discussing golf but I find the likes of 'TGM', 'The Science of Golf' or 'Search for the Perfect Swing' aren't really for 99.99% of golfers but for the very few who want to digest such facts. I have studied the golf swing and have avoided getting too scientific. Like everyone I want to know how to create and explain good shot making but when the explanations go way over my head and after three or four attempts to read or listen to them, this remains the case, then I'll try to find a plain English explanation.

I am hoping most replies will be like yours, on topic and not referring to a link with some stock explanation.

So you prefer to analyze "feeel" rather than determine "forces"? If so, you are like 99.99% of all golfers... teachers too.

How "scientific" do you get... and do you use video, Trackman/Flightscope, as part of your instruction... or do you just eyeball it..??

You don't need "science" to instruct successfully, but it seems that instruction is getting more science-based for the pro and serious amateur golfers. What is your teaching philosophy for rank recreational golfers searching for a reliable swing or a magical swing tip?

 

[TheScotsman]

Do I understand that you are both a "player" and an "instructor"..?

Yes I play the game for fun and coach it for a living.

In my view, players use and depend on subjective feedback feeel... while an instructor uses objective observational analytics.

I prefer to say that players benefit more from physical rather than subjective feedback if they want to improve feel... while a coach should be more involved with his student's personal observations before jumping in with his less than objective analysis.

Do you believe that somebody who is an "instructor", can instruct themselves successfully... or do they wisely seek out external objective advice?

This could be the title of a lengthy discussion but I'll give a short answer.

I use 'Inner Game' techniques 80% of the time when I am teaching my students. A large part of this process involves using 'non judgemental feedback' where the student's own observations are allowed to be heard first. The coach therefore adopts the role of a mirror, video camera or sound board offering feedback as to the accuracy of the students own observations. My daughter fills this role perfectly for me when I work on my own swing. She expertly offers the NJF that I require.

You don't see dentists working on their own cavities ....

I know one who does!

Could not agree with you more

Thanks, some people would say that my answer is really just a cop out. I honestly find TGM etc extremely hard to read.

 

[TheScotsman]

So you prefer to analyze "feeel" rather than determine "forces"? If so, you are like 99.99% of all golfers... teachers too.

How "scientific" do you get... and do you use video, Trackman/Flightscope, as part of your instruction... or do you just eyeball it..??

I use geometry sometimes, some physics and a bit of Math. I use video very sparingly and although I know of Trackman/Flightscope, I feel they're not required for the golfers at my club. I know this sounds a little silly because of what these devices reveal but I prefer my students to stay out of their heads.

You don't need "science" to instruct successfully, but it seems that instruction is getting more science-based for the pro and serious amateur golfers. What is your teaching philosophy for rank recreational golfers searching for a reliable swing or a magical swing tip?

I could really write a book on this question but I'll give you the short answer again. My philosophy is to build a swing using the biological talents that a student already possesses. Some of these may be a little polluted but I will try to lead out/extract something more refined. I also believe a swing is performed better physically and not physiologically.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Hey Scots,

There is "so-called" science, and there is actual science.

TGM does not belong in the same category are SFTPS or Science of Golf, and both of them pale in comparison to what we have uncovered in Project 1.68.

 

[Rick Dandy]

One of the founding principals of the Manzella Tartan, Crest and Clan Association, convened over 110 years ago in Edinburgh, was "reviving, conserving and promoting the interests, associations and relations of the "tartan, crest, and clan." While Manzella Tartan, Crest, and Clan Online, in its role of the Association's Chartered Electronic Branch, has participated in the reviving and promotion of the tartan, crest, and clan, in addition to fostering relations of the tartan, crest, and clan via the Internet, we have been at a loss as to how to go about electronically conserving Manzella Tartan, Crest, and Clan documents.

In late 1961 we commenced efforts to acquire unique, valued pieces of content - tartan, crest, and clan-related documents, namely poetry, lore, songs, correspondence, news stories, maps, artwork, photographs, transcriptions of speeches and other relevant documents. Our initial goal, of providing fifty such documents at the time of the Manzella Tartan, Crest, and Clan Archives' "launch" was met. Due to the efforts of Tartan, Crest, and Clan Manzella Nations, the Archives have grown into a new and exciting part of Tartan, Crest, and Clan Manzella Online. Content is continually being submitted for inclusion, based on certain criteria.

Will you freely post without equivocation, purpose of evasion, or mental reservation, your forbearance and tenacity of spirit streaming solely from the Louisiana Tiger and the Gold Fleur de lis?

Affirmed.

I submit that you are now bound and determined to not oologize in a lengthy fashion, the fruitful ground.

Be it resolved.

Second to the motion?

 

[coach]

Is there a cool coat of arms ????

 

[ZAP]

This just seems odd. And I am an expert on odd.

 

[TheScotsman]

Hey Scots,

There is "so-called" science, and there is actual science.

TGM does not belong in the same category are SFTPS or Science of Golf, and both of them pale in comparison to what we have uncovered in Project 1.68.

Hi Brian,

I am first and foremost an Inner Game coach and although I believe knowledge can be a mine field of information for some fields and at certain levels of excellence in those fields, I personally believe the hobby golfer requires less science. I am however a little biased because I am a very poor student of what you are studying and trying to achieve and I have always relied on the fact that my physical skills are not determined by science but raw motor skill development.

Could I improve how I present my method of coaching by having a better understanding of this science? Maybe, but I prefer to coach using my personal strengths and passions which involve imagination, creativity, feel, awareness and concentration. These attributes cannot be measured by scientific devices.

I envy your passion for improving your scientific knowledge but it does go right over my head.

 

[TheScotsman]

One of the founding principals of the Manzella Tartan, Crest and Clan Association, convened over 110 years ago in Edinburgh, was "reviving, conserving and promoting the interests, associations and relations of the "tartan, crest, and clan." While Manzella Tartan, Crest, and Clan Online, in its role of the Association's Chartered Electronic Branch, has participated in the reviving and promotion of the tartan, crest, and clan, in addition to fostering relations of the tartan, crest, and clan via the Internet, we have been at a loss as to how to go about electronically conserving Manzella Tartan, Crest, and Clan documents.

In late 1961 we commenced efforts to acquire unique, valued pieces of content - tartan, crest, and clan-related documents, namely poetry, lore, songs, correspondence, news stories, maps, artwork, photographs, transcriptions of speeches and other relevant documents. Our initial goal, of providing fifty such documents at the time of the Manzella Tartan, Crest, and Clan Archives' "launch" was met. Due to the efforts of Tartan, Crest, and Clan Manzella Nations, the Archives have grown into a new and exciting part of Tartan, Crest, and Clan Manzella Online. Content is continually being submitted for inclusion, based on certain criteria.

Will you freely post without equivocation, purpose of evasion, or mental reservation, your forbearance and tenacity of spirit streaming solely from the Louisiana Tiger and the Gold Fleur de lis?

Affirmed.

I submit that you are now bound and determined to not oologize in a lengthy fashion, the fruitful ground.

Be it resolved.

Second to the motion?

I take it this whole post was rhetorrical.

Is there a cool coat of arms ????

This just seems odd. And I am an expert on odd.

 

[Matt Bryda]

Mr. Rick..

You,

are a dandy.

 

[johnnymarlboro]

Don't mind Steve T, Scotsman. He's a hacker with an engineering background who thinks he's a swing expert. While he does know some stuff, it seems he rarely uses this knowledge for good. I have a feeeeling he's mostly really bored and is trying to keep himself entertained.