Problems with hinging and wrist positions

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After reviewing 10-10, this gets my vote for the worst explanation and pictures in TGM.

Here is my attempt at understanding it.

Hinging

10-10-A. Horizontal Hinging. The clubhead is on a vertical plane (e.g. putting). So Horizontal hinging is an arm (flying wedge) roll. The arm rotates in the shoulder socket. The clubhead moves forward and out. The clubface closes, and hoods, relative to both the plane and the ball.

10-10-B Vertical hinging. The clubhead is again on a vertical plane. Vertical hinging is the arm moving in the shoulder socket across the body. The clubhead moves forward and down, relative to the ball and the plane. The clubface lays back, relative to both the plane and the ball.

10-10-C Angled hinging. The clubshaft is on an angled plane. Angled hinging is the arm moving in the shoulder socket across the body. There is no rotation in the shoulder socket. The clubhead moves forward and down, and out, relative to the ball. The clubface lays back and closes on the downswing, relative to the ball. The clubface lays back on the downswing, relative to the Inclined Plane. In fact, Angled Hinging is just vertical hinging on an Inclined Plane.

10-10-D Dual Horizontal. The clubshaft is on an angled plane. The angle mounted hinge is static. The angled hinge represents the raising of the arms in the shoulder socket in front of the body. This allows the clubhead to be on an angled plane. The arm rotates in the shoulder socket. The clubhead moves forward, and up(!) relative to the ball. The clubface closes, and hoods, relative to the ball. The clubface closes, relative to the Inclined Plane.

10-10-E Dual Vertical. By my understanding, this would be the same as Angled hinging. (Something is wrong here).

I think the problems with Hinging in TGM are as follows.

1. The pictures are describing an action, but there is only one picture per action. Two for each would do wonders.

2. He says "The clubhead is on a vertical plane". What is the geometric representation of a clubhead ? Is it a point (sweet spot), a line, a sphere ? If the clubhead is on a vertical plane, where is the clubshaft ? Where is the arm ? If the "clubshaft is on an angled plane" where is the clubhead ?

3. The shoulder moves in two independant directions, and rotates as well. For each action, what are the directions the arm moves in at the shoulder. Across the body ? Up and down (is this the angled hinge in dual hinging ?) ? Does it rotate the arm ? From what position does the action take the arm from and what position does it go to ?

4. In 2C-1 we see the Swingers Hinge. The clubface is closing, the clubshaft is moving forward, the clubhead is moving down, and out. What are the elements that are driving these motions ? Arm rotation ? Forearm rotation ? Pivot (shoulders moving down, and or around) ? Arms moving down in the shoulder socket ? Arms moving left across the body in the shoulder socket ? The right wrist unbending ? The left wrist swivelling ?

Wrist positions

Arched/Flat/Bent,Cocked/Uncocked are easily understood. They are clearly recognized looking at just the hand and the forearm. Turned/Vertical/Rolled are not. The wrist can be rolled and turned by either the elbow or the shoulder (or the pivot, if vertical is relative to the ground). In addition, the wrist is sometimes referred to as "vertical to the ground", or "vertical to the Inclined Plane". What is the geometrical representation of the wrist in this context ? Is it a line, a plane ? When we see "vertical" with regards to the wrist, with no reference point, is it relative to the ground, the plane, the elbow, the shoulder ?

Some of this is redundant with earlier posts, but I'm trying to get everything clear in one place.

When two men of science disagree, they do not invoke the secular arm; they wait for further evidence to decide the issue, because, as men of science, they know that neither is infallible. But when two theologians differ, since there is no criteria to which either can appeal, there is nothing for it but mutual hatred and an open or covert appeal to force.
- Bertrand Russell Can Religion Cure our Troubles, 1954.
 

matt

New
quote:Originally posted by azgolfer

After reviewing 10-10, this gets my vote for the worst explanation and pictures in TGM.

Here is my attempt at understanding it.

Hinging

10-10-A. Horizontal Hinging. The clubhead is on a vertical plane (e.g. putting). So Horizontal hinging is an arm (flying wedge) roll. The arm rotates in the shoulder socket. The clubhead moves forward and out. The clubface closes, and hoods, relative to both the plane and the ball.

Pure horizontal hinging can only occur if the clubshaft is on a vertical plane - clubshaft perpendicular to the ground. As you may guess, this doesn't happen in a golf stroke because you stand next to the ball instead of straight over it. The clubface closes only - it doesn't hood like you mentioned. Hooding is delofting the face, closing is the face rotating closed like a door.

quote:10-10-B Vertical hinging. The clubhead is again on a vertical plane. Vertical hinging is the arm moving in the shoulder socket across the body. The clubhead moves forward and down, relative to the ball and the plane. The clubface lays back, relative to both the plane and the ball.

Clubshaft is again perpendicular to the ground. Clubface lays back only...no closing. Again, though, it's not that practical because we swing on an inclined plane.

quote:10-10-C Angled hinging. The clubshaft is on an angled plane. Angled hinging is the arm moving in the shoulder socket across the body. There is no rotation in the shoulder socket. The clubhead moves forward and down, and out, relative to the ball. The clubface lays back and closes on the downswing, relative to the ball. The clubface lays back on the downswing, relative to the Inclined Plane. In fact, Angled Hinging is just vertical hinging on an Inclined Plane.

I don't understand where you're coming from here when you talk about shoulder sockets and whatnot. Angled hinging does occur on the inclined plane. The clubface motion is layback with closing which imparts sidespin. Angled hinging is not vertical hinging on an incline plane...that would be Dual Vertical Hinging.

quote:10-10-D Dual Horizontal. The clubshaft is on an angled plane. The angle mounted hinge is static. The angled hinge represents the raising of the arms in the shoulder socket in front of the body. This allows the clubhead to be on an angled plane. The arm rotates in the shoulder socket. The clubhead moves forward, and up(!) relative to the ball. The clubface closes, and hoods, relative to the ball. The clubface closes, relative to the Inclined Plane.

Dual horizontal hinging is simply horizontal hinging on an Inclined Plane of motion. Clubface only closes - no layback. I think people get confused with the terminology here. There is no hidden meaning to the term "dual" - it just refers to a hinge action executed on the inclined plane. In a regular golf stroke, you only execute either Dual Horizontal, Dual Vertical, or Angled Hinge actions. The only possible way you can execute Horizontal Hinge or Vertical hinge (only) actions is if the clubshaft is perpendicular to the ground - which it never is.

quote:10-10-E Dual Vertical. By my understanding, this would be the same as Angled hinging. (Something is wrong here).

Dual Vertical is simply a vertical hinge on an Inclined Plane. There is still only layback of the clubface, but instead of the clubshaft being perpendicular to the ground it's on an inclined plane since we stand next to the ball.

quote:I think the problems with Hinging in TGM are as follows.

1. The pictures are describing an action, but there is only one picture per action. Two for each would do wonders.

2. He says "The clubhead is on a vertical plane". What is the geometric representation of a clubhead ? Is it a point (sweet spot), a line, a sphere ? If the clubhead is on a vertical plane, where is the clubshaft ? Where is the arm ? If the "clubshaft is on an angled plane" where is the clubhead ?

3. The shoulder moves in two independant directions, and rotates as well. For each action, what are the directions the arm moves in at the shoulder. Across the body ? Up and down (is this the angled hinge in dual hinging ?) ? Does it rotate the arm ? From what position does the action take the arm from and what position does it go to ?

4. In 2C-1 we see the Swingers Hinge. The clubface is closing, the clubshaft is moving forward, the clubhead is moving down, and out. What are the elements that are driving these motions ? Arm rotation ? Forearm rotation ? Pivot (shoulders moving down, and or around) ? Arms moving down in the shoulder socket ? Arms moving left across the body in the shoulder socket ? The right wrist unbending ? The left wrist swivelling ?

Wrist positions

Arched/Flat/Bent,Cocked/Uncocked are easily understood. They are clearly recognized looking at just the hand and the forearm. Turned/Vertical/Rolled are not. The wrist can be rolled and turned by either the elbow or the shoulder (or the pivot, if vertical is relative to the ground). In addition, the wrist is sometimes referred to as "vertical to the ground", or "vertical to the Inclined Plane". What is the geometrical representation of the wrist in this context ? Is it a line, a plane ? When we see "vertical" with regards to the wrist, with no reference point, is it relative to the ground, the plane, the elbow, the shoulder ?

Some of this is redundant with earlier posts, but I'm trying to get everything clear in one place.

When two men of science disagree, they do not invoke the secular arm; they wait for further evidence to decide the issue, because, as men of science, they know that neither is infallible. But when two theologians differ, since there is no criteria to which either can appeal, there is nothing for it but mutual hatred and an open or covert appeal to force.
- Bertrand Russell Can Religion Cure our Troubles, 1954.

I've got to run...might delve into this second part later. I understand your confusion, but I think the entire second part of your post above (which I haven't answered yet) really is insignificant. Hinge Action is one of those components that confuses everyone, yet is so childishly simple once you "get it." I can stand here and COMPLETELY explain it to you in a few minutes. You'd never worry about it again. Unfortunately that can't happen on a forum, and that's too bad. But I promise that once you understand, you'll wonder what the big deal was in the first place. :)
 
quote: The clubface closes only - it doesn't hood like you mentioned. Hooding is delofting the face, closing is the face rotating closed like a door.

The clubface would hood - because the clubface has loft. Hooding can also be caused by leaning the shaft forward, of course.

quote:I think the entire second part of your post above (which I haven't answered yet) really is insignificant.

Great, then you can rattle off the answers in a couple of minutes, right ?
 

matt

New
Hooding is not the same as Closing.

Closing is like a door swinging back and forth on a horizontal hinge pin - a normal door. Hooding is leaning the shaft forward to deloft the club. They are not one and the same. As Homer said: the only club that can be hooded to any advantage is the Putter.

Conclusion: the clubface doesn't hood during Horizontal Hinging, nor would you ever want to conciously make it do that.
 

matt

New
quote:Originally posted by azgolfer



quote:Originally posted by matt

I think the entire second part of your post above (which I haven't answered yet) really is insignificant.

Great, then you can rattle off the answers in a couple of minutes, right ?

What I meant by this is that all that is moot once you understand the basics of Hinge Action. You don't have to worry about shoulder sockets, arms moving here, left wrist swiveling there, across the body this, pivot that. It's all very insignificant once you grasp Hinging. I'll try to expound on this later, or if anyone else wants to jump in then be my guest. One other way to make this all very clear in your mind: sign up for one of Yoda's workshops. :)
 

bts

New
My understanding:

"Horizontal hinge": CLOSing the clubface (horizontally primarily, although delofting vertically in the meantime) relative to the clubhead path (while the sole or leading edge of the clubhead is parallel to the ground during impact) by ROLLing the right forearm/hand OVER the left.

"Vertical hinge": OPENing the clubface (vertically primarily, although opening horizontally in the meantime) relative to the clubhead path (while the sole or leading edge of the clubhead is parallel to the ground during impact) by TURNing the right forearm/hand UNDER the left (or reverse roll).

"Angled hinge": maintaining the relationship between the clubface orientation and clubhead path during impact by not manipulating the action of the forearms/hands (or NO ROLL/TURN).
 

matt

New
quote:Originally posted by bts

My understanding:

"Horizontal hinge": CLOSing the clubface (horizontally primarily, although delofting vertically in the meantime) relative to the clubhead path (while the sole or leading edge of the clubhead is parallel to the ground during impact) by ROLLing the right forearm/hand OVER the left.

"Vertical hinge": OPENing the clubface (vertically primarily, although opening horizontally in the meantime) relative to the clubhead path (while the sole or leading edge of the clubhead is parallel to the ground during impact) by TURNing the right forearm/hand UNDER the left (or reverse roll).

"Angled hinge": maintaining the relationship between the clubface orientation and clubhead path during impact by not manipulating the action of the forearms/hands (or NO ROLL/TURN).

Dual Horizontal Hinging is a full roll that feels like a full roll. The leading edge of the clubhead will be pointing along the Plane Line at followthrough.

Dual Vertical Hinging is a no roll that feels like a reverse roll. The leading edge will be pointing across the Plane Line at followthrough.

Angled Hinging is a half roll that feels like a no roll. The leading edge will be at right angles to the Plane Line at followthrough.

Use the feels to guide your quest to differentiate the feelings of each hinge action.
 
A couple of points. 2-c-1 shows us dual horizontal hinging. We can see what the club does. The shaft rotates, it moves forward, down, and out. What the clubhead and clubface do depends on how we define them. If we are swinging a hockey stick, it becomes simpler. The lie and loft of the club make the clubface movement more complex. Also, how are we geometrically defining the clubhead ? Is it a point (the sweet spot) that has mass ? If so then rotating the clubshaft moves the clubhead. I think sections should be added similar to 2-c-1 showing angled, vertical and dual vertical club movement. The other problem is what is moving the shaft around, down, forward and out. The hands (since they are clamps), obviously, but pivot, shoulder roll/extension/drop, downcock, forearm roll, could all be moving the hands (clamps). If we are to practice horizontal, angled, and vertical hinging, what is the body motion we are doing for each ?
 

matt

New
The control for all of this is in the left wrist. Like I said before:

Feel a full roll for dual horizontal hinging.

Feel a no roll for angled hinging.

Feel a reverse roll for dual vertical hinging.
 
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