putting like chipping
- Thread starter tongzilla
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I think it's from Utley's method, in which he advises hitting down on the ball to get it out of the depression it's in. This has been thoroughly debunked by SAM findings, fuggheadaboudit.
Speaking of which, here's a link to the data I keep referencing.
You can see that it's not necessary for the putter to have no loft, only for the effective loft to be less than the rise angle. Theoretically, you could have a putter with 7* of loft, but make contact with a rise angle of 8* and still get topspin.
That obviously seems impractical. I don't have the mathematical "know-how" to back this up, but I think that if you struck the ball with a rise angle of 8*, contact would be quite a bit after low point (I don't "know-how" much), meaning the face would be pointing quite a bit left.
Like the driver, if you hit up with the putter, the face will be pointing left at impact. So what are the implications of this, and what does this have to do with putter loft?
Say your Scotty Cameron has 4* of loft. To impart topspin, you have to have a rise angle at least slightly greater than 4*. At impact with a rise angle of slightly greater than 4*, the ball is "X" forward of lowpoint.
If you have a putter with 3* of loft, you need more than 3* of rise angle. At impact with slightly greater than 3* rise angle, the ball is "X - a little" forward of lowpoint. At slightly greater than 2*, the ball is "X - a little more" forward of lowpoint. And so on and so on.
With a putter that has 0* of loft, less rise angle is required to impart topspin, meaning that the ball can be closer to lowpoint, meaning that the face won't be pointing as far left at impact. Personally, I find the 0* putter to be appealing for a few reasons:
1) I would be able to have the ball as close to lowpoint as possible, to limit the extent to which the face points left at impact.
2) I wouldn't need to deloft/forward press, which could potentially open the face more than it needs to be opened if the ball is struck on the rise (if I'm choosing not to aim right, and I choose not to).
3) The 0* degree putter seems more compatible with neutral hands, which I use for my putting stroke.
Keep in mind, I'm not a scientist or a mathematician. These are all just conclusions I've drawn from the available research.
In regards to having to hit down on the ball to get it out of the depression, I mean, that doesn't even really make sense from any perspective, scientific or not. If a volleyball was sitting down in the sand, and you wanted to slap it over to the guy who's about to serve, would you mash it down into the sand? Probably not.
birdie_man
New
Interesting.
That SAM stuff does seem very neat. (really)
(This is the obvious question as you know but...) I can't help but think that the OEMs must know some stuff GPM, no?
What does the MGA sayeth?
Sir Demon Lucas?
Geoff M?
That SAM stuff does seem very neat. (really)
(This is the obvious question as you know but...) I can't help but think that the OEMs must know some stuff GPM, no?
What does the MGA sayeth?
Sir Demon Lucas?
Geoff M?
birdie_man
New
To be honest it does make some sense to me in principle.
Ya...how big a depression could the ball be sitting in? (from its own weigt) How important to consider green conditions?
Hit up on a 0 loft putter and you should be good to go no?
Ya...how big a depression could the ball be sitting in? (from its own weigt) How important to consider green conditions?
Hit up on a 0 loft putter and you should be good to go no?
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GPM,
I know what you are saying. I was thinking the same questions when I read your initial post.
Seems as if SAM's "rise angle" says that you can hit upwards without adding loft.
In other words, the stroke has a little scrape upwards.
In Trackman/full swing type analysis, if you have a driver with 10 degrees loft and you hit upwards 2 degrees, the effective loft is 12 degrees.
I agree, it seems that 0 degrees loft on a putter makes for less hand manipulation as you mention.
I know what you are saying. I was thinking the same questions when I read your initial post.
Seems as if SAM's "rise angle" says that you can hit upwards without adding loft.
In other words, the stroke has a little scrape upwards.
In Trackman/full swing type analysis, if you have a driver with 10 degrees loft and you hit upwards 2 degrees, the effective loft is 12 degrees.
I agree, it seems that 0 degrees loft on a putter makes for less hand manipulation as you mention.
Seems like a little depression at the bottom of the ball may actually help topspin if the rise angle is greater that the effective loft.
Yeah, they know stuff, but they'll always operate according to what sells, not to what is scientifically optimal. I haven't seen the numbers, but I think we'd all laugh if shown the discrepancy between any major OEM's budget allottment for marketing and for R&D.
I think you're referring to the third diagram, entitled "RISE imparts TOPSPIN to the ball." This diagram is an oversimplification, and can be a little misleading. Unless you have some type of gradually increasing forward press through the ball, the effective loft will increase as the putter moves farther past lowpoint.
I know Damon Lucas works with Geoff Mangum, and it would be great to hear some of his input. I really enjoy Mr. Mangum's site and the quality of information he provides. Really interesting stuff.
Mangum advocates a putting stroke that has the sweetspot on the aimline for a considerable distance (several inches) on each side of the ball. I'm curious to know how viable this type of motion is, or if it is even possible without any type of hand manipulation that would prohibit precise repetition.
The concept of a stroke that has the sweetspot "on-the-line" longer is intriguing because it could possibly eliminate the need to open the face or aim right, as the face wouldn't be pointing left at upward strike.
I know many believe that the putter head moves on an arc, or a tilted plane, and I'm curious to know why exactly it has to. I don't have an agenda, and I'm not committed either school of thought. I honestly want to hear some enlightened discourse on putter path and D-plane.
Some highspeed video would be great.
Like to hear Daman's input too.
A few weeks ago I went with a more forward press through the stroke on what I thought the Mickelson/Dave Stockton thing was about.
Does seem that the blade doesn't want to open and close as much but so be it.
My distance control for sure, if not my direction, is better.
It's how I putted as a teenager and it seems intuitively more natural.
A few weeks ago I went with a more forward press through the stroke on what I thought the Mickelson/Dave Stockton thing was about.
Does seem that the blade doesn't want to open and close as much but so be it.
My distance control for sure, if not my direction, is better.
It's how I putted as a teenager and it seems intuitively more natural.
Damon Lucas
Super Moderator
I'll try to get back to this a bit later, but ....
When you change or adjust one stroke parameter, it is pretty likely you'll affect other parameters. So while it is nice to talk about backspin, topspin, 'depression' avoidance, and other factors associated with pure roll, depending on the player's ability and type of stroke, you'll see a different range of side effects.
The first question you should ask is whether or not you'll benefit from a different roll of the ball. After the first 20% or so of the putts journey, balls 'roll out' the same, so you're really trying to influence the area near impact.
My advice here is that trying to influence a stroke's roll with a forward press, or a Stockton type hands leading move has ramifications to one's accuracy, not always positively. If you want rise, have the ball ahead of low point, prob about 1-2 inches. Be careful with the loft on your putter, 2-3 degrees should be plenty for most people on most greens.
Finally, the stroke method mentioned by GPM, has no hand, arm or wrist manipulation whatsoever. Simply, it involves some set up factors, and a stroke whereby the left shoulder moves more vertically in the through stroke and the sternum stays steady in space.
When you change or adjust one stroke parameter, it is pretty likely you'll affect other parameters. So while it is nice to talk about backspin, topspin, 'depression' avoidance, and other factors associated with pure roll, depending on the player's ability and type of stroke, you'll see a different range of side effects.
The first question you should ask is whether or not you'll benefit from a different roll of the ball. After the first 20% or so of the putts journey, balls 'roll out' the same, so you're really trying to influence the area near impact.
My advice here is that trying to influence a stroke's roll with a forward press, or a Stockton type hands leading move has ramifications to one's accuracy, not always positively. If you want rise, have the ball ahead of low point, prob about 1-2 inches. Be careful with the loft on your putter, 2-3 degrees should be plenty for most people on most greens.
Finally, the stroke method mentioned by GPM, has no hand, arm or wrist manipulation whatsoever. Simply, it involves some set up factors, and a stroke whereby the left shoulder moves more vertically in the through stroke and the sternum stays steady in space.
birdie_man
New
DL said:
Interesting.
And putts break less going faster.
raiderholic
New
did the putting video idea die?
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