Putting torque on the upper lever

[James Marshall (Hogan1953)]

It seems to me that in my time teaching, aside from controlling the clubface, the major challenge presented to the average player is being able to "put enough torque on the upper lever" in the transition/downswing to successfully situate low point far enough left to be able to hit down on the ball sufficiently.

My question is, why can't the average amateur leverage his/her body enough to be able to do it?

Darius has suggested on his blog that many golfers never find their limits in the backswing (they don't stretch themselves enough) and as a consequence are unable to leverage their bodies effectively in the downswings.

Other possibilities that occur to me:

The club is in the hands and it doesn't weigh very much, making it relatively easy to move with the hands/arms themselves independently from the body

A lack of understanding/knowledge of what is optimal

Physical limitations

However, are there alignments of the joints at the top of the backswing which make leveraging the body easier in the downswing?

If my right hip displaces in the backswing does it make it more difficult to externally rotate it in the transistion?

Any input much appreciated

 

[spktho]

It seems to me that in my time teaching, aside from controlling the clubface, the major challenge presented to the average player is being able to "put enough torque on the upper lever" in the transition/downswing to successfully situate low point far enough left to be able to hit down on the ball sufficiently.

My question is, why can't the average amateur leverage his/her body enough to be able to do it?

Darius has suggested on his blog that many golfers never find their limits in the backswing (they don't stretch themselves enough) and as a consequence are unable to leverage their bodies effectively in the downswings.

Other possibilities that occur to me:

The club is in the hands and it doesn't weigh very much, making it relatively easy to move with the hands/arms themselves independently from the body

A lack of understanding/knowledge of what is optimal

Physical limitations

However, are there alignments of the joints at the top of the backswing which make leveraging the body easier in the downswing?

If my right hip displaces in the backswing does it make it more difficult to externally rotate it in the transistion?

Any input much appreciated

I'm not too sure I follow all your questions, but will take a stab at them.

When you say "put enough torque on the upper lever" are you saying twisting the shaft about itself? And when you say "aside from controlling club face", but want to try to control low point, I think controlling the face plays a large part in controlling low point--especially with flippers. I would say most of the amateur golfers with poor pivots are because of a lack of squaring the clubface and then making compensations.



"My question is, why can't the average amateur leverage his/her body enough to be able to do it?"

I think they can, if taught how to.




"However, are there alignments of the joints at the top of the backswing which make leveraging the body easier in the downswing?"

I have been working on not really having a "top of the backswing". It is more of a transition from backswing to downswing initiated by the lower body. Couple this with lagging clubhead takeaway and you have a dynamic pivot.

With the dynamic pivot, club face control becomes even more important because the forces involved in the pivot and the structure of a golf club promotes an open club face in the transition.

 

[JonWil]

I'm not too sure I follow all your questions, but will take a stab at them.

When you say "put enough torque on the upper lever" are you saying twisting the shaft about itself? And when you say "aside from controlling club face", but want to try to control low point, I think controlling the face plays a large part in controlling low point--especially with flippers. I would say most of the amateur golfers with poor pivots are because of a lack of squaring the clubface and then making compensations.



"My question is, why can't the average amateur leverage his/her body enough to be able to do it?"

I think they can, if taught how to.




"However, are there alignments of the joints at the top of the backswing which make leveraging the body easier in the downswing?"

I have been working on not really having a "top of the backswing". It is more of a transition from backswing to downswing initiated by the lower body. Couple this with lagging clubhead takeaway and you have a dynamic pivot.

With the dynamic pivot, club face control becomes even more important because the forces involved in the pivot and the structure of a golf club promotes an open club face in the transition.

Great response!

 

[James Marshall (Hogan1953)]

"Putting torque on the upper lever" refers to Dr Zick's factors-which-determine-low-point presentation at the Anti-summit. He identified the application and timing of the torques on the upper arm applied by the trunk, the torques at the wrist on the club and a nominal centre of rotation somewhere near the sternum as the factors which determine where the clubhead reaches its lowest point.

As you point out if the player has the face open the lowest point will likely be back in an effort to square the face up. However, it still seems to me that the principle challenge facing the average player is being able to apply sufficient torque on the upper lever and resist the temptation to apply the torques at the wrist too early which inevitably moves low point right.

 

[drewyallop]

have been working on not really having a "top of the backswing". It is more of a transition from backswing to downswing initiated by the lower body. Couple this with lagging clubhead takeaway and you have a dynamic pivot.

Exactly my experience. If I start thinking "top", I'm dead. As soon as the lagging club starts back I am preparing to make a forward move. I don't feel a "stop" at any point in the swing.

Drew

 

[golfdad]

perhaps to some this thread is intuitive. or, intuitive by now. but for a beginner struggling with many issues at the same time, the underlying principle of this thread can be enlightening.

it is just so difficult to swing from the ground up for many folks, even if they know about it.

 

[James Marshall (Hogan1953)]

perhaps to some this thread is intuitive. or, intuitive by now. but for a beginner struggling with many issues at the same time, the underlying principle of this thread can be enlightening.

it is just so difficult to swing from the ground up for many folks, even if they know about it.

Maybe it reflects a little the type of student I've got but it seems to me to be the biggest challenge facing the vast majority of them.

 

[lia41985]

I'm not too sure I follow all your questions, but will take a stab at them.

When you say "put enough torque on the upper lever" are you saying twisting the shaft about itself? And when you say "aside from controlling club face", but want to try to control low point, I think controlling the face plays a large part in controlling low point--especially with flippers. I would say most of the amateur golfers with poor pivots are because of a lack of squaring the clubface and then making compensations.



"My question is, why can't the average amateur leverage his/her body enough to be able to do it?"

I think they can, if taught how to.




"However, are there alignments of the joints at the top of the backswing which make leveraging the body easier in the downswing?"

I have been working on not really having a "top of the backswing". It is more of a transition from backswing to downswing initiated by the lower body. Couple this with lagging clubhead takeaway and you have a dynamic pivot.

With the dynamic pivot, club face control becomes even more important because the forces involved in the pivot and the structure of a golf club promotes an open club face in the transition.

What an explanation, thanks!

Hopefully Lindsay Newman gives his thoughts on this--your comments were as enlightening and, to me, in a similar vein, to his comments in the tumble thread.

 

[Matt Bryda]

it is just so difficult to swing from the ground up for many folks, even if they know about it.

This has been my experience with students recently since learning about a lagging clubhead takeaway, back and forth drill, line in the sand drill. I have yet to see an adult really get it in their first lesson. I have had a few kids do it almost right away.

It took me a while to get it but I think think this ground up, one after the other sequence is a huge deal to incorporate into your swing. The lagging clubhead takeaway and stepping off the left foot without the arms joining in at the same time reminds me of the time as a kid trying to learn how to play the drums. The hands and feet must work at different times (beats) and maintain a pattern. For me this took hours of practice.

Matt

 

[golfdad]

Maybe it reflects a little the type of student I've got but it seems to me to be the biggest challenge facing the vast majority of them.

i share the same sentiment. i am not sure if having "more muscles than necessary" in the upper limbs is a factor, or that we tend to do things more with our arms and hands than the middle section, or our middle section tend to get thicker and less flexible with time, there seems to be a disconnect between the upper and lower and consequently, the sequence invariably goes from upper to lower when it should be the other way around.

perhaps this is another example why golf often requires thinking and action that is really not intuitive.

imho,,,when the sequence is correct, many of the problems that teachers are chasing with their students can self-resolve with much less effort. for instance, many people struggle to close or square the face, as if that action needs to be singled out or independent. my humble and therefore possibly incorrect opinion is that a better sequencing can make this problem go away with less effort or even care.

better sequencing means better timing and tempo which may allow the hands to return to impact zone without much rerouting or deliberation.

now, i am going to bring up something totally off tangent for fun

lets look at kids in the US in terms of early exposure to sports: the use of hands and arms is subconsciously emphasized from day one: grabbing and receiving a softball, dribbling basketball, holding a football in hand and wondering about what to do with it, etc. with all of above, to become good at anyone of them, you need to develop better sequencing to connect the upper with the lower. but the start is with upper limb. when a ball is coming at you, you reach out to catch it or to block it with your hands.

then lets look at some other cultures where soccer is the thing. the introduction to the sport world is by way of the lower limb and athletic abilities then develop upward.

am i suggesting soccer players rather than american footballer will become better golfers? no, i certainly have no evidence to say so or have come across such studies, but it may something to consider, or even a way to market a book or something

point is: for some people, the circuitry developed early may contribute to difficulties in picking up new habits later in life. honestly, i am constantly amazed to see how some of the most successful athletes fumble at golf. with all the time and money and teaching, they just cannot learn to swing like a golfer

balllat classes are in order!

 

[Bigwill]

i share the same sentiment. i am not sure if having "more muscles than necessary" in the upper limbs is a factor, or that we tend to do things more with our arms and hands than the middle section, or our middle section tend to get thicker and less flexible with time, there seems to be a disconnect between the upper and lower and consequently, the sequence invariably goes from upper to lower when it should be the other way around.

perhaps this is another example why golf often requires thinking and action that is really not intuitive.

imho,,,when the sequence is correct, many of the problems that teachers are chasing with their students can self-resolve with much less effort. for instance, many people struggle to close or square the face, as if that action needs to be singled out or independent. my humble and therefore possibly incorrect opinion is that a better sequencing can make this problem go away with less effort or even care.

better sequencing means better timing and tempo which may allow the hands to return to impact zone without much rerouting or deliberation.

now, i am going to bring up something totally off tangent for fun

lets look at kids in the US in terms of early exposure to sports: the use of hands and arms is subconsciously emphasized from day one: grabbing and receiving a softball, dribbling basketball, holding a football in hand and wondering about what to do with it, etc. with all of above, to become good at anyone of them, you need to develop better sequencing to connect the upper with the lower. but the start is with upper limb. when a ball is coming at you, you reach out to catch it or to block it with your hands.

then lets look at some other cultures where soccer is the thing. the introduction to the sport world is by way of the lower limb and athletic abilities then develop upward.

am i suggesting soccer players rather than american footballer will become better golfers? no, i certainly have no evidence to say so or have come across such studies, but it may something to consider, or even a way to market a book or something

point is: for some people, the circuitry developed early may contribute to difficulties in picking up new habits later in life. honestly, i am constantly amazed to see how some of the most successful athletes fumble at golf. with all the time and money and teaching, they just cannot learn to swing like a golfer

balllat classes are in order!

I don't know if it's correct, but I always thought that, as it relates to swinging from the ground up (or using the pivot in general) is that adults strong enough to do it the wrong way, where young kids don't often have the strength to really swing a real club without incorporating the pivot in a dynamic manner.

This is one reason that I've considered using a cut down club as a starter for one of my kids, if they show an interest in the game

 

[golfdad]

good point, big.

in addition, the extra weight may also make the kid manage the club differently. with something heavier, we lift as well as swing, not just swing,,,

my kids grew up playing us kids golf club (junior club brand). it is made lighter...

then again, you can also be like anthony kim who just choked down his father's clubs all the way to pga

 

[ScottRob]

It seems to me that in my time teaching, aside from controlling the clubface, the major challenge presented to the average player is being able to "put enough torque on the upper lever" in the transition/downswing to successfully situate low point far enough left to be able to hit down on the ball sufficiently.

I am trying to wrap my noggin around the concept of using torque in transition.

My first observation from NHA2 is that a more upright plane requires comparatively less torque to tumble the club head towards the ball. Is that an accurate statement?

What do shut faced players do in transition? Do they reverse torque first? With the left wrist bowed it seems more difficult to torque it with the wrist, unless it is a matter of using the entire arm (LAFW.)

Was hogan's concepts of pronation (left thumb under the shaft) and supination (bowing it in the downswing) his understanding of torquing the handle?