Question for Brian and the Scientists

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Although much of what is discussed on this forum centers on what a golfer can do both biomechanically and scientifically for optimal results, far less is mentioned about those students whose lack of flexibility, range of motion, age or athletic ability prevents them from making a full backswing or follow through.

I’ve spoken to Brian in the past about his teaching regimen and how his clientele are usually serious golfers willing to commit (and travel) to seek out his knowledge. In other words, he’s not working with Mrs. Havencamp very often.

I’m not the first teacher that’s had to make compensations for players with knee replacements or back injuries, but there is a significant benefit to altering a player’s stance, usually closed to utilize what little ability they have to turn. Flightscope and Trackman #’s bear this out.

My question is…does the science back up altering players stances, sometimes significantly, to improve a player’s backswing (artificially creating a full turn), knowing that with their limited mobility, a closed stance will hinder their follow through?
 

art

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Although much of what is discussed on this forum centers on what a golfer can do both biomechanically and scientifically for optimal results, far less is mentioned about those students whose lack of flexibility, range of motion, age or athletic ability prevents them from making a full backswing or follow through.

I’ve spoken to Brian in the past about his teaching regimen and how his clientele are usually serious golfers willing to commit (and travel) to seek out his knowledge. In other words, he’s not working with Mrs. Havencamp very often.

I’m not the first teacher that’s had to make compensations for players with knee replacements or back injuries, but there is a significant benefit to altering a player’s stance, usually closed to utilize what little ability they have to turn. Flightscope and Trackman #’s bear this out.

My question is…does the science back up altering players stances, sometimes significantly, to improve a player’s backswing (artificially creating a full turn), knowing that with their limited mobility, a closed stance will hinder their follow through?

Dear ekennedy,

I believe the broadest interpretation of your question is critically important as it addresses the major portion of the golfing community desperately wanting to improve.

So, I too would appreciate the 'real' scientists weighing in here especially 'mandrin' for whom I have the highest regard, and suspect he may also be a very good golfer, and able to relate how, with science he improved his own, and hopefully others golf swings.

Unfortunately, IMO, the science is at best FRAGMENTED with specific regard to the golf swing. BUT there has been significant research in all the areas necessary to allow 'systems scientists' to INTEGRATE the pieces and get 'first-order scientific answers to important

As you have undoubtedly read, my dream is to integrate and synchronize 2 force plates with a 3D system, a launch monitor and camera system all with at least a 100 cycles per second response rate. Then invite the medical community in to blend with the kinesiological and bio-mechanical folks to add their instrumentation and determine the bodies internal reactions and especially muscle/tendon activity in critical areas.

But my commitment to Brian and this great site is ALWAYS TRY TO ADD VALUE, so from a blend of 'applied science' and 'operations research' backgrounds, and a passionate desire to understand 'HOW and WHY EVERY TYPE of golf swing works, here is my suggestion.

In the 5 short years I have been concentrating in this area however, I have had the incredible pleasure to 'tutor' the teachers of golfers with a wide variety of constraining , and swing affecting characteristics, so I would like to take a 'shot' at your question hoping it will encourage others to contribute.

As you I am sure realize, I believe, and hope to prove that consistent TEMPO/RHYTHM, then dynamic balance and stability are the mandatory building blocks for a repeatable golf swing.

As a college baseball player, I learned to take practice swings with my feet together and 'swing as hard as I could'. While I had no reason for doing it, I now realize that I was training myself to have increased stability, and probably, as a result, increased my bat speed.

This drill, with a golf club is INCREDIBLY revealing for as you, or your student (in either a horizontal baseball-like, or inclined golf swing set-up) is asked to increase the 'back and forth repetitive swings' from say 20 to 40 to 60 to 80 percent, tempo, stability AND range of motion limitations in the back swing, down swing AND follow thru will ALL become obvious.

So, while you are waiting for the 'golf scientists' to get our INTEGRATED act together, and you, armed with first hand knowledge, and the severity of the imbalances and range limitations of your student, you the instructor can more objectively assess the priorities and sequence/blend of lessons and possibly even specialized training that is required.
 
Thanks Art.

From a first hand standpoint, more seems to be gained by creating a dynamically balanced set-up (if possible) and getting the student into a dynamically balanced backswing (again, if possible) even through a fairy closed stance. Then use whatever strength and flexibility they may have prior to and up until impact to go normal...forgoing the dynamically balanced finish or a "pretty" follow through.

From a scientific standpoint, if you only have only 25% to work with via flexibility, should you leave anything for post impact? Is anything lost?
 
S

SteveT

Guest
Although much of what is discussed on this forum centers on what a golfer can do both biomechanically and scientifically for optimal results, far less is mentioned about those students whose lack of flexibility, range of motion, age or athletic ability prevents them from making a full backswing or follow through.
..............................

My question is…does the science back up altering players stances, sometimes significantly, to improve a player’s backswing (artificially creating a full turn), knowing that with their limited mobility, a closed stance will hinder their follow through?

Not a "scientist"... only an "engineer"... you know... the guys who take the fundamental science the science guys have discovered, and then build stuff using that fundamental science for stuff like... cars.. planes.. trains.. washing machines.

Engineers read about all the sciences... physics, chemistry, astronomy, biology, even psychology... and then try to cobble things together for use by clumsy humans...:rolleyes:

The human body is not conducive to the whirling, twirling, torking, forking needed to execute an optimal golfswing... i.e. not fit for golfswing contortion. The human body is just a mess and it can't be easily redesigned for a golfswing... it resists change, but add to that chronic injury, you have a recipe for failure. But the human spirit keeps on truckin'... and they will risk acute injury that will destroy their quality of later life.

People with knee and hip replacement and those with ruptured spinal disks (like our cwdlaw with a 280+yard drive) should be very careful swinging a golf club, because trying to find compensations, like a closed stance, will create additional stress and strain in other parts of the swing.

Closing the stance will hinder the followthru and it will exaggerate the flow of kinetic forces which will concentrate themselves against the closed stance... and the excess forces will show up and overstress the lead foot, ankle, knee and hip.

My suggestion: Don't close the stance, keep it square or slightly open and shorten the backswing for a less energetic albeit compromised swing. This will protect the decrepit golfer who insists on playing golf to the death.

Tell Mrs. Havencamp to take up lawn bowling or shuffleboard... unless she wants to brag to her golfing gals that she had a lesson from gorgeous you..;)
 
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p.s. ekennedy: my post is not a dig at your post. I just think lawn bowling and shuffleboard are physically comparable to golf:cool:
 
From a student perspective, if a teacher puts me into a closed stance to allow me to make a backswing I would like to get a "health warning" i.e. if you swing harder, you're probably going to start hooking the ball, so focus on timing and solid contact.

That would allow me to understand my likely miss, so if that I'm coming down 18 with 34 points off my 24 handicap and the Club Championship within my grasp, I know what to do/what not to do.
 

Dariusz J.

New member
Stance consists of several crucial elements and not only of silly position of both feet in relation to the target line.

People almost always forget that golfers stand ca. 90* closed to where the target is located. This is the most important thing one should start to think about when thinking about optimal stance for a biped.

Cheers
 
p.s. ekennedy: my post is not a dig at your post. I just think lawn bowling and shuffleboard are physically comparable to golf:cool:

Sorry mate I couldn't disagree with you more. In professional lawn bowls(younger people) when was the last time you heard of someone blowing out the cartilage in their knees or herniating a disc in their back and neck or tendinitis in the elbows and shoulders from playing the sport.

I think this is a very interesting and useful question that does deserve time spent on it. Unfortunately I have to agree with Art, the science needs to evolve to the point of knowing how the optimal swing is created from start to finish, then from an educated perspective, it can be deconstructed and adaptively applied to the less gifted. But with the work Brian is pushing along, we are definitely on our way.:D

Christopher
 
Sorry mate I couldn't disagree with you more. In professional lawn bowls(younger people) when was the last time you heard of someone blowing out the cartilage in their knees or herniating a disc in their back and neck or tendinitis in the elbows and shoulders from playing the sport.

I might have exaggerated a little.

I just don't think it requires all that much physical prowess and flexibility to put up decent impact numbers (not talking club head speed).My father blames his declining game to his age and always complains that he cannot get "through the shot." He thinks it's a physical issue and that he will never be able to get much better. I know he's physically capable of making a good swing. His problem is he doesn't know what he is doing.

I too think the OP is a useful and interesting question.
 
I might have exaggerated a little.

I just don't think it requires all that much physical prowess and flexibility to put up decent impact numbers (not talking club head speed).My father blames his declining game to his age and always complains that he cannot get "through the shot." He thinks it's a physical issue and that he will never be able to get much better. I know he's physically capable of making a good swing. His problem is he doesn't know what he is doing.

I too think the OP is a useful and interesting question.

Although it is fun to give our dad's a hard time now and then, but he may be right. I am not sure how far along your dad is in this process but pelvic mobility changes as you get older.

Specifically I am referring to the Sacroiliac joint ( SIJ ). From when we are born to the day we die this joint is changing in range of motion. What is of real importance to recognize is that from the early 30's the joint develops ridges in it. This in turn starts to restrict movement as they get bigger to the end point (usually in the 60's) where it fuses. The problem that tends to happen when these ridges start to form is that if there is enough load on the joint it will shift and then locks. This in turn puts stress on the ligaments that bind the joint which can result in pain or the very least a neurological inhibition of some of the pelvic muscles.

This imbalance will change the possibilities of movement in the pelvis and also core engagement. The end result will be a dramatic impact on your ability to swing a golf club.

To the question of your dad's issue never changing, i would disagree. Providing it hasn't fused, if you can re-establish pelvic symmetry and muscle balance he should see a great improvement.

Christopher
 
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