Real Ball Flight Behavior.

Status
Not open for further replies.
B

Brian Manzella

Administrator
This isn't PING GOLF or TAYLOR MADE, etc., but it is the best available information. I am sure this will be copied around the 'net—which this is good—and if any guys/gals who work at a Major Company or for a Tom Wishon, etc, want to "update" this so it is perfect, let me know.

This is a straight path with a 10° open clubface.

The old-school PGA "Ball Flight Law" version would say that the ball STARTED on the green line and curved to the blueish one. Which, of course, is incorrect.

10degreesopen.jpg
 
R

Ringer

New
Brian...after years of believing that the ball started more on a tangent of the clubhead arc and curved toward the direction of the face, I have come to the conclusion that it is wrong....

I would be interested to know if this diagram is as accurate when the speeds change.
 
S

SundayHacker

New
What I don't understand is why there's even a disagreement about this to begin with? It's either one way or the other, and open to no sort of interpretation. Aren't ball flight laws something that could be set as fact (once and for all) after studying an Iron Byron hitting a few in a launch monitor? ...if so, why is the original version of this (face in relation to path dictates spin, path dictates initial direction) still predominant?
 
Last edited:
B

Brian Manzella

Administrator
SundayHacker said:
What I don't understand is why there's even a disagreement about this to begin with? It's either one way or the other, and open to no sort of interpretation. Aren't ball flight laws something that could be set as fact (once and for all) after studying an Iron Byron hitting a few in a launch monitor?
Click to expand...

I'm down with that.

Only one problem—even though the REAL NUMBERS have been known for a decade or two, NOBODY IS RELEASING THE DATA.

The companies don't want to offend the Pros who think otherwise, and don't want to rick the CLUB SALES boat.
 
P

puttmad

New
Brian,

I understand the "finishing right of the clubface line," but don't understand the 14" bit....Is this related to the total distance of carry, whereby longer irons would end up further off line than short irons???
 
P

puttmad

New
...

SundayHacker said:
What I don't understand is why there's even a disagreement about this to begin with? It's either one way or the other, and open to no sort of interpretation. Aren't ball flight laws something that could be set as fact (once and for all) after studying an Iron Byron hitting a few in a launch monitor? ...if so, why is the original version of this (face in relation to path dictates spin, path dictates initial direction) still predominant?
Click to expand...

I think you'll find the end result of any bending shot must relate to the ball being used. For example, if you put 10* of sidespin on an old balata ball, it won't end up where a modern bal;l would. It will bend, bend and bend......:)

Therefoere it it probably quite difficult to make a "standard" chart for deviation as it would differ with every ball..
 
B

Brian Manzella

Administrator
No need to nitpick.

Sure, differnt lofts and differnt lie angles, ball speed, ball type, sea-level...

But the PREMISE IS TO EDUCATE away from the CRAP that was taught.

Such as the very distructive version of what this impact would produce. Again, old-school PGA Ball Flight Laws say ball starts at green line and curves to blue. Nope.:

54hookspin.jpg
 
R

Ringer

New
Brian.. I'd still like to know if any of the data changes when the speed or COR is different.

I would think lower speeds the ball starts more in the direction of the clubface with less spin. At higher speeds it would start more toward the path but with more spin.
 
P

puttmad

New
....

Ringer said:
Brian.. I'd still like to know if any of the data changes when the speed or COR is different.

I would think lower speeds the ball starts more in the direction of the clubface with less spin. At higher speeds it would start more toward the path but with more spin.
Click to expand...

Ringer,
We did all this on a thread recently..

The research indicated that it is always about 80/20 in favour of the clubface angle.
 
P

puttmad

New
Brian,
I wasn't nitpicking (if you were referring to me)...

Just wanted to know what the 14 inches meant.....still do..:)
 
J

jmessner

New
puttmad,

I think the 14 (degrees not inches) is the angle from target plane line if you drew a line between the original ball position and the final ball position (where it sliced to). That might be a little less interesting than the other numbers.
 
mjstrong

mjstrong

New
Simulators & Launch Monitors

A rather obvious question to me would be: Do most of the simulators and/or launch monitors out there use these formulae to calculate their simulated ball flight, or are they using the more incorrect "old PGA" versions?

I'd be very interested to know whether a few of the simulators I've hit on (and even "taught" on) would be found to be accurate. Interesting...
 
M

mpro

New
Brian,

Where are you getting these numbers from? A launch monitor? If so, if the numbers are crunched inside the monitor's software with the wrong set of calculations "old school" you can't trust em. Am I making sense here?

In putting Pelz found 90% club face. is there such a number for the full swing. Of course, this seemingly has to change as club speeds vary. Perhaps this is why the PGA has not updated their info. It seems that the relationship is too interdependent to make definitive statements, but the general face = takeoff and path = curve should be the starting point.

John Dunigan
 
B

Brian Manzella

Administrator
:)

John,

I have worked with a GolfTek machine a bunch. For the most part if you have the path with the face, you get a shot at the target.

EXAMPLE: 6° inside-out, 3°open clubface, shot at (toward) target

At the PGA Teaching Summit, Callaway said the PATH/FACE starting line is ~70% toward the face.

That's where my numbers come from.

My second pic/chart was incorrect, and I am fixing it today.

:)
 
P

puttmad

New
mpro said:
Brian,

Where are you getting these numbers from? A launch monitor? If so, if the numbers are crunched inside the monitor's software with the wrong set of calculations "old school" you can't trust em. Am I making sense here?

In putting Pelz found 90% club face. is there such a number for the full swing. Of course, this seemingly has to change as club speeds vary. Perhaps this is why the PGA has not updated their info. It seems that the relationship is too interdependent to make definitive statements, but the general face = takeoff and path = curve should be the starting point.

John Dunigan
Click to expand...

John,

I have fixed the broken link from my post above (ddidn't realise :))
Some info here..
http://www.tutelman.com/golfclubs/DesignNotes/swing2.php?ref=clubmakeronline
 
M

mpro

New
Puttmad,

That site is very interesting. Aside from the ball flight stuff, the article on the Trebuchet had me really thinking. Although he said that the sling overtook the hinge pin, it sure looked as though the arm stopped which caused it. I'm going to try contacting him about that as I have long wondered if you could swing your arms like heck and then stop the left arm when it is below the left shoulder would the throw out speed be greater?

John Dunigan
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top