keygolf/Carey: By young adult I mean around 25. I started playing later . I will ask more about "The Process" later. There was a post by a child psychologist and golf teacher on the same thread on FGI that touched on this. I am looking forward to learning how to be more baby like in order to learn more quickly.
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Realistic potential of golfers?
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I saw the post on FGI. Don't know him, but he appears to have a background with substance. I'll look at his book when it comes.quote:Originally posted by hue
keygolf/Carey: By young adult I mean around 25. I started playing later . I will ask more about "The Process" later. There was a post by a child psychologist and golf teacher on the same thread on FGI that touched on this. I am looking forward to learning how to be more baby like in order to learn more quickly.
The learning process (for adults) needs to follow the same stages that all of us went through as children, as outlined beautifully by Erik Erikson. he gave us the best description of the prototype for a lifetime. Adults only need to follow that outline and have a means to "save the files" to their "hard drives." As you know, I do that with clear keys (save the files).
Martin with his bag of tricks, walking around the range like Carrot Top would be one of my first choices. I really like Smith, I love his first move to the ball with his hip. I taped most of his shows and I rewind and rewind it whenever he demostrates it.
Reinmouth has been a sore spot with me for years. I think the guy can teach a pro to improve, but he can't not teach in front of a camera to an audience. THE WORST. And if you are on TV, well you better have a stage presences.
My choices: Brian for sure, just to meet this guy and bull**** over a few beers works for me. Hall, but only without Flick. Rick Smith, a must. Chuck Cook, Payne Stwart's dad trusted this guy not to screw him up. I've always liked him. Ben Doyle would be a trip to swing in front of.
Wayne DeFrancesco in Maryland, great teacher, wonderful golf writer. Took a few lessons with him two years ago. He writes for the slick Washington Golf Monthly and is only second to Brian with opinions.
BRIAN: check out his last article, he talks about getting on the top 100 top 50 list. He doesn't care for them. Good stuff.
http://www.thewgm.com/playing/index.htm
Sorry for ramble.
Reinmouth has been a sore spot with me for years. I think the guy can teach a pro to improve, but he can't not teach in front of a camera to an audience. THE WORST. And if you are on TV, well you better have a stage presences.
My choices: Brian for sure, just to meet this guy and bull**** over a few beers works for me. Hall, but only without Flick. Rick Smith, a must. Chuck Cook, Payne Stwart's dad trusted this guy not to screw him up. I've always liked him. Ben Doyle would be a trip to swing in front of.
Wayne DeFrancesco in Maryland, great teacher, wonderful golf writer. Took a few lessons with him two years ago. He writes for the slick Washington Golf Monthly and is only second to Brian with opinions.
BRIAN: check out his last article, he talks about getting on the top 100 top 50 list. He doesn't care for them. Good stuff.
http://www.thewgm.com/playing/index.htm
Sorry for ramble.
I have to disagree children learn better than adults....
Children have an advantage, they will accept advice and actually impliment but they lack the drive and ambition of adults. I can achieve anything now providing I put in the time and dedication and learn much faster than I ever could as a child on absolutely ANYTHING as long as the attempt is true and benifitial.
Children tend to be undisiplined when learning. But they will do what you ask of them, an adult on the other hand can really make progress alot quicker because of one thing.... dedication, drive and ambition which is never quite so prevalent as a child.....
Children have an advantage, they will accept advice and actually impliment but they lack the drive and ambition of adults. I can achieve anything now providing I put in the time and dedication and learn much faster than I ever could as a child on absolutely ANYTHING as long as the attempt is true and benifitial.
Children tend to be undisiplined when learning. But they will do what you ask of them, an adult on the other hand can really make progress alot quicker because of one thing.... dedication, drive and ambition which is never quite so prevalent as a child.....
Eminem: You observation deals with motivation rather than the innate ability to learn. Yes adults are more likely to be deliberatly motivated and organised but children's brain development mean they are more open to learning than adults. Here is the post from the guy at FGI that keygolf and I were discussing.
The reason that starting young is such an advantage is that a young person's brain adapts to learning much easier. The development and acquisition of languages , for examle, is a complex construct to learn. Yet, children learn at a much faster pace than adults. The reason is our brains and operational mode as children is such that things are learned and expected to be learned readily. I am both a child psychologist and a golf professional. Teaching children is such a great experience with the progress that they make compared to adults. Not a plug, but my new book addresses how one can take their game to higher levels using a different approach to learning that actually is based on how children learn so well.
Bill
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My New Book: Golf; How Good Do You Want To Be?
The reason that starting young is such an advantage is that a young person's brain adapts to learning much easier. The development and acquisition of languages , for examle, is a complex construct to learn. Yet, children learn at a much faster pace than adults. The reason is our brains and operational mode as children is such that things are learned and expected to be learned readily. I am both a child psychologist and a golf professional. Teaching children is such a great experience with the progress that they make compared to adults. Not a plug, but my new book addresses how one can take their game to higher levels using a different approach to learning that actually is based on how children learn so well.
Bill
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My New Book: Golf; How Good Do You Want To Be?
Hue haven't you learned anything about the internet .... anyone can be anyone, I could be Tiger Woods as far as you could be concerned and if you never saw my pictures you might even believe me.....
Even you can act like you have a clue on here...
Yes it is a plug - people seem to think children grasp things like language better and its a common myth and in his case and exploit to sell his book
What about adults that learn to read and write because they never learned, they take only a year to get to the same level that kids take several years to achieve?
The only disadvantage of being adult is that we become less likely to actually open to learning as we get older....
Adults are much better at methodical practice that children could ever be, their attention spans are very limited and have no powers of concentration, adults only have to be open to learning and learn how to learn (which alot don't).
Even you can act like you have a clue on here...
Yes it is a plug - people seem to think children grasp things like language better and its a common myth and in his case and exploit to sell his book
What about adults that learn to read and write because they never learned, they take only a year to get to the same level that kids take several years to achieve?
The only disadvantage of being adult is that we become less likely to actually open to learning as we get older....
Adults are much better at methodical practice that children could ever be, their attention spans are very limited and have no powers of concentration, adults only have to be open to learning and learn how to learn (which alot don't).
At the same time, a child will have no insight into the "why" behind what he/she is learning, which is natural in his/her stage of growth and development. This may explain why many so-called natural players have little idea of what they are doing during the golf swing.
Since music, or more accurately, the ability to play a musical instrument has been used as an analogy in this thread(and I agree that this is a very valid analogy), I will use it to make another point.
Music is a collection of sounds. The aspiring musician "hears" sounds in his/her head and endeavors to capture and convey them via voice or a mechanical device. While there may be the occasional savant who can do this with no training, most of us must learn both theory (the organization of sounds)/composition (the application of theory), and playing (mechanical/technical competency) to achieve the optimal results.
In other words, You need both an understanding of music theory/composition and playing skills to maximize your musical potential. A "street player" (a musician with little or no formal training) may think his/her playing is more spontaneous or inspired, but in truth, it is limited both creatively and technically. It is the trained musician (who understands music and the theory behind it, and possesses the tecnichal skills on his/her instrument(s), i.e., is not merely playing prememorized licks pulled from a limited bag of tricks) who realizes his/her potential musically because he/she does more than merely hear the sounds in his/her head, but also understands why they sound the way they do and is able to mechanically reproduce them. I guarantee you that this has a synergistic effect upon the creative process. The street player is limited in these aspects. That's why all of Chuck Berry's songs sound alike, while Mile Davis evolved musically (Miles trained at Julliard), for example.
So what's the point? Going back to the realistic potential for golfers the Hue brought up, an adult will optimize his/her results by studying theory/composition and playing as it applies to golf. Don't focus on the swing and ball striking at the expense of the other important aspects of the game. Learn course management. Really, really learn that golf is a game of targets. Understand the rules of golf and how they can help you (Tiger and the boulder at Phoenix). Learn to understand how rain, wind, the environment affect play. Learn how to play from different lies, from the rough, hardpan, wet sand, fluffy sand, etc. Learn how and when to play knockdowns, when to play chips shots forward/back in your stance. Don't be a "street player."
I have greatly improved as a ball striker via lessons and practice, but I play my best when my course management skills are "on", even if I'm striking the ball poorly.
After a year of lessons, my instructor took me to the course for a playing lesson. I played 7 holes in 90 minutes and was 2 under par (not bad for a 90's shooter!!). I was the mechanical executor of her instructions. It was her knowledge and experience and my mediocre ball striking that achieved those results.
Now, I work on my swing/ball striking, but I also study the other stuff as well. I don't worry about my "innate potential." There is more to golf than that.
Since music, or more accurately, the ability to play a musical instrument has been used as an analogy in this thread(and I agree that this is a very valid analogy), I will use it to make another point.
Music is a collection of sounds. The aspiring musician "hears" sounds in his/her head and endeavors to capture and convey them via voice or a mechanical device. While there may be the occasional savant who can do this with no training, most of us must learn both theory (the organization of sounds)/composition (the application of theory), and playing (mechanical/technical competency) to achieve the optimal results.
In other words, You need both an understanding of music theory/composition and playing skills to maximize your musical potential. A "street player" (a musician with little or no formal training) may think his/her playing is more spontaneous or inspired, but in truth, it is limited both creatively and technically. It is the trained musician (who understands music and the theory behind it, and possesses the tecnichal skills on his/her instrument(s), i.e., is not merely playing prememorized licks pulled from a limited bag of tricks) who realizes his/her potential musically because he/she does more than merely hear the sounds in his/her head, but also understands why they sound the way they do and is able to mechanically reproduce them. I guarantee you that this has a synergistic effect upon the creative process. The street player is limited in these aspects. That's why all of Chuck Berry's songs sound alike, while Mile Davis evolved musically (Miles trained at Julliard), for example.
So what's the point? Going back to the realistic potential for golfers the Hue brought up, an adult will optimize his/her results by studying theory/composition and playing as it applies to golf. Don't focus on the swing and ball striking at the expense of the other important aspects of the game. Learn course management. Really, really learn that golf is a game of targets. Understand the rules of golf and how they can help you (Tiger and the boulder at Phoenix). Learn to understand how rain, wind, the environment affect play. Learn how to play from different lies, from the rough, hardpan, wet sand, fluffy sand, etc. Learn how and when to play knockdowns, when to play chips shots forward/back in your stance. Don't be a "street player."
I have greatly improved as a ball striker via lessons and practice, but I play my best when my course management skills are "on", even if I'm striking the ball poorly.
After a year of lessons, my instructor took me to the course for a playing lesson. I played 7 holes in 90 minutes and was 2 under par (not bad for a 90's shooter!!). I was the mechanical executor of her instructions. It was her knowledge and experience and my mediocre ball striking that achieved those results.
Now, I work on my swing/ball striking, but I also study the other stuff as well. I don't worry about my "innate potential." There is more to golf than that.
I know you said you were addressing hue, but I think maybe you might suspect that you are as much an object of "Even you can act like you have a clue" as anyone else, and of course that includes all of us, since no one puts up much more of a set of professional credentials than you did with your parental background and music.quote:Originally posted by Eminem
...
Even you can act like you have a clue on here...
The only disadvantage of being adult is that we become less likely to actually open to learning as we get older....
Adults are much better at methodical practice that children could ever be, their attention spans are very limited and have no powers of concentration, adults only have to be open to learning and learn how to learn (which alot don't).
Hue gave a reference from someone else. Does it make any difference in validity at this point that it may be a "plug?" Reading the book will tell whether he is "on" or "off." And fortunately there are measurement and evaluative elements that can be called upon to check positions against validated principles.
Adults and children learn differently, but unless Erikson was full of you-know-what, adults use the very same procedural hierarchy for learning (minus the non conscious support provided by Mother Narure as an assist to children who are not yet mature) that they acquired as children, only at the more mature level that you hint at. That comes with the motivation that hue referred to, and I agree with him on that, and suggest that your position, while offered logically, is not really supportable except in what you believe from what you have observed.
You make the same point we are making - that adults become less open to learning as they get older. The difference in perception, if I hear you correctly, is that we are saying that's built in to the fabric and you are saying it's a matter of personal choice and motivation. I will suggest that it is likely some of both. Now all we have to do is figure out which comes first - the chicken or the egg.
FanofHogan
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quote:Originally posted by semipro
lessons from someone who knew what he was doing and hitting 1,000 balls every week while working on timing, tempo, fitness.
I am comfortable playing and it has paid off.
Keep it up guy, I am rooting for you. We all can say we knew you before you made it!
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