Right Shoulder
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dschultz6072
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Do you think this is something he worked on?
I wouldn't be surprised if he's always done it since he was a little kid. I think he played baseball a lot when he was young. Maybe that helps ingrain it.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
We really don't talk much about the swings of folks I work with who are currently playing tournament golf.
But, in this case, maybe just for a hour or two, I'll make a small exception.
Here is why.
Great swings that travel on a "relatively" steeper EVENTUAL plane toward the ball (think Calc/Nicklaus), as opposed to Sergio/mid50's-60's Hogan, who swung to the ball on a relatively flatter EVENTUAL plane toward the ball, they need a right shoulder that travels on a steeper plane, more or less parallel to that eventual plane. Hogan and Sergio's right shoulder move is flatter than Calc, Jack, or in your example David.
For the record, I have never really given a rats rear end about whether or not someone's head moves up or down in the swing. And to get the maximum Pull Back-Run Up-& Jump, the golfer surely must lower their head. So that's why, even though all the experts have a cow when Tiger does it, you've never heard a peep about that here in the negative.
In my opinion, golfers SHOULD NOT try to lower this right shoulder, much less try to drop the head. It should be done by matching the right side bend to the release. And in the case of David, we do work on it a reasonable amount. When we do, we do it more from the pelvis moving forward and open, and lifting the belt line through impact.
If you want to further discuss these moves, let's use someone else, as it is a worthwhile subject, just not current clients.
But, in this case, maybe just for a hour or two, I'll make a small exception.
Here is why.
Great swings that travel on a "relatively" steeper EVENTUAL plane toward the ball (think Calc/Nicklaus), as opposed to Sergio/mid50's-60's Hogan, who swung to the ball on a relatively flatter EVENTUAL plane toward the ball, they need a right shoulder that travels on a steeper plane, more or less parallel to that eventual plane. Hogan and Sergio's right shoulder move is flatter than Calc, Jack, or in your example David.
For the record, I have never really given a rats rear end about whether or not someone's head moves up or down in the swing. And to get the maximum Pull Back-Run Up-& Jump, the golfer surely must lower their head. So that's why, even though all the experts have a cow when Tiger does it, you've never heard a peep about that here in the negative.
In my opinion, golfers SHOULD NOT try to lower this right shoulder, much less try to drop the head. It should be done by matching the right side bend to the release. And in the case of David, we do work on it a reasonable amount. When we do, we do it more from the pelvis moving forward and open, and lifting the belt line through impact.
If you want to further discuss these moves, let's use someone else, as it is a worthwhile subject, just not current clients.
Axis Tilt?
Great stuff, Brian, appreciate the reply!
If memory serves me right, years back you used to promote "axis tilt," or tilting the spine back behind the ball during the backswing and downswing. Do you still think that many golfers who lack axis tilt (particularly many hack slicers) should consciously try to add axis tilt to their downswings?
Couldn't lowering the right shoulder be a "feel" that helps many golfers create more axis tilt during the downswing?
P.S.: Your point about distinguishing between the Sergio/mid50's-60's Hogan category vs. the Calc/Nicklaus is an interesting one that I haven't thought about it. Trying to think of counterexamples right now. The first one that comes to my mind is Graeme McDowell: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GpstOZJXdBE His swing is pretty flat. And BOY does that right shoulder move down aggressively!
Great stuff, Brian, appreciate the reply!
If memory serves me right, years back you used to promote "axis tilt," or tilting the spine back behind the ball during the backswing and downswing. Do you still think that many golfers who lack axis tilt (particularly many hack slicers) should consciously try to add axis tilt to their downswings?
Couldn't lowering the right shoulder be a "feel" that helps many golfers create more axis tilt during the downswing?
P.S.: Your point about distinguishing between the Sergio/mid50's-60's Hogan category vs. the Calc/Nicklaus is an interesting one that I haven't thought about it. Trying to think of counterexamples right now. The first one that comes to my mind is Graeme McDowell: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GpstOZJXdBE His swing is pretty flat. And BOY does that right shoulder move down aggressively!
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Everyone who can hit two balls in a row in the air has the bottom of their spine closer to the target than the top, so-called "axis tilt."
Anyone not teaching the bottom of their spine closer to the target than the top will be out of business in a week.
I teach everyone physically able to move their pelvis forward on the downswing (and around+to take the hip tilt out). I teach everyone to have the head behind the ball at impact.
Having golfers tie their right shoe tighter before address will help "some" golfers.
We used to teach "right shoulder down plane"....we sure don't do that any more. Why? We have better ways of creating the correct body movements in the correct sequence.
You need to look harder and try to figure out WHAT A GOLFER WOULD HAVE TO DO in their swing, if they didn't do the "match shoulder move" I talked about in my cover article in Golf Magazine this month.
The incomplete answer is.....a whole lot of something else.
Brian also said above that golfers should not try to intentionally lower their head. I strongly disagree. If you look at the top-ranked players in the world, the vast vast majority lower their heads substantially during the downswing. I think that if you are an amateur golfer who is younger than 60, if your head doesn't lower substantially during the downswing, you are probably driving the ball much less effectively than you could be.
GeoffDickson
New
But are they intentionally lowering their head?
Erik_K
New
Correct. The lowering of the head is the result of trying to do something else. Perhaps during the coiling (loading) phase the big hitters are trying to use the ground as leverage. The head doesn't really dip down on it's own, but the knees are flexing, the posture could be changing slightly, axis tilt, etc.
I don't care whether it' done intentionally or unintentionally. The head should lower. If the golfer does other stuff that indirectly results in a lower head, that's fine. But intentionally lowering it has worked for me many times. One of my swing keys.
A prime candidate for indirectly lowering the head is to aggressively shove your hips back behind the tush line during the backswing to ensure that you don't thrust your hips (and lift your head) toward the ball during the downswing.
I'd say that as a general rule, the more "dipped" your head is at impact, the more powerful your golf swing is. There may be some exceptions to this rule. But there is definitely a strong correlation.
Notable exception: some golfers, such as Yani Tseng, who set up very bent over yet still find a way to make their swings work. But Yani's head is certainly relatively close to the ground at impact.
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Rick Dandy
New
If you need to use the space.
If not, watch the Wee Welshman.
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/nFH1Scm7Dpw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
If not, watch the Wee Welshman.
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/nFH1Scm7Dpw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
Kevin, what do y'all advocate that might result in a substantial head lowering during the downswing? Apparently trying to get the right shoulder closer to the ground has been scratched off the list.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Telling students to actively MOVE their right shoulder down plane, down at the ball, or just down, has been scratched off the list for a really good reason.
We know better.
It's the wrong shoulder for power.
Look here
And have you read my Sergio article yet?
The right shoulder CAN GO TOO LOW for some.
From Rocco Mediate's interview in a recent Golf Digest.
"The newest technology is an MRI-like thing for your golf swing. It's beyond TrackMan. They strap these sensors on you, and you get a profile where parts of your body register in different colors. The trick is to keep the colors as uniform as possible, because if you're stressing one part, the rest come tumbling down. Now, what lowers the stress is to keep your head level throughout the swing. To do that, you need to swing from the ground up and use your lower body and the big muscles to generate speed. I call it "sucking the power out of the ground."
If your head stays level -- I don't like this dipping stuff you see among a lot of players -- it leads to effortless power. And it's easier on you physically. You hit it more solid. I'm longer than I've ever been and have an extra 15 to 20 yards on call with the driver when I need it, by pretty much keeping my head level. It's a good swing thought for everybody."
Hey, to each his own.
"The newest technology is an MRI-like thing for your golf swing. It's beyond TrackMan. They strap these sensors on you, and you get a profile where parts of your body register in different colors. The trick is to keep the colors as uniform as possible, because if you're stressing one part, the rest come tumbling down. Now, what lowers the stress is to keep your head level throughout the swing. To do that, you need to swing from the ground up and use your lower body and the big muscles to generate speed. I call it "sucking the power out of the ground."
If your head stays level -- I don't like this dipping stuff you see among a lot of players -- it leads to effortless power. And it's easier on you physically. You hit it more solid. I'm longer than I've ever been and have an extra 15 to 20 yards on call with the driver when I need it, by pretty much keeping my head level. It's a good swing thought for everybody."
Hey, to each his own.
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
I advocate whatever works for the student. I don't prescribe to some ridiculous "list" of moves or whatever as something that is "optimal". Look at ekennedy's post. I just had a 12 year old have his eyes follow the ball of the club to keep his head up and moving through and he hit it way better. So, needless to say I thought, we don't advocate much in the way of the same for everyone. Brian listed a few that I agree with, though.
"Yeah, I know all the pros do that but that doesn't mean amateurs should do it......."
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