Right Shoulder

[Kevin Shields]

That's NOT what you said. You said whenever you make swing changes, they will inevitably feel uncomfortable. You changed it to substantial swing changes will typically feel uncomfortable. Big difference.

 

[Lifter]

That's NOT what you said. You said whenever you make swing changes, they will inevitably feel uncomfortable. You changed it to substantial swing changes will typically feel uncomfortable. Big difference.

I apologize for my inexact wording. Should have been more careful.

 

[Kevin Shields]

I apologize for my inexact wording. Should have been more careful.

You don't have to be a smart ass. You said what you said. There's a huge difference. Bottom line is you're not a teacher and have ZERO experience to draw on to come to any of these conclusions. If you're a 57 year old comb over with bitch tits working on 12 micro moves at a time I'm sure they'll feel uncomfortable and you'll never leave the range. But you can make a change and have it put into play immediately in many cases......many.

I'm sorry for being harsh, everybody likes you. But you have to realize how you sound to people who have taught more golf lessons today than you and Jeffy have in your entire lives.

 

[Lifter]

More from me, the know-it-all

You don't have to be a smart ass. You said what you said. There's a huge difference. Bottom line is you're not a teacher and have ZERO experience to draw on to come to any of these conclusions. If you're a 57 year old comb over with bitch tits working on 12 micro moves at a time I'm sure they'll feel uncomfortable and you'll never leave the range. But you can make a change and have it put into play immediately in many cases......many.

I'm sorry for being harsh, everybody likes you. But you have to realize how you sound to people who have taught more golf lessons today than you and Jeff have in your entire lives.

This is fun! A few points. First, a big part of why I enjoy this forum is that I get to think out loud and get other peoples' take on it. Sometimes they'll agree and sometimes they'll disagree. The disagreements are especially useful because I might learn something from them. It's a privilege to be able to interact with someone as experienced as Brian and as competitively accomplished as Kevin.

Lately, I've been making a lot of comments about process rather than "optimal technique." And Kevin is one of the most ideal people I can imagine talking to about process since he teaches and he's successfully competed at a level of golf that I can barely dream of.

Anyway, in recent posts I've been describing my conception of process and how to improve my own ballstriking. And in my mind, the things I've been saying about process have been pretty non-controversial. All of it basically derives from the John Jacobs approach of "observe the ballflight and adjust accordingly." But for some reason, Kevin does not appreciate that I'm writing some of this stuff down. I'm not quite sure why. He's not really going after the substance of what I'm writing.

I guess to some folks I'm coming across as too much of a know-it-all. Well, if that puts off some of the people on this forum, I'm sorry that I come off that way. Just to be clear, I am not someone who teaches golf for a living. Not even close. I am merely a humble amateur tossing my thoughts out in this forum because I'm interested in getting discussions going and learning something.

Finally, in some of his recent writings, Kevin is accusing me of advocating certain things that I haven't. In one post he accuses me of opposing sifting through different moves to find the "magic move" that is right for my particular swing. I am all for that! In the post above, he caricatures me as someone working on 12 different moves, all at the same time. I am totally opposed to that! All you have to do is look at the posts I've put up in the past couple days. It's as if Kevin isn't arguing with me but is instead using me to argue with someone else (who might that be? I have no Earthly idea).

But for the record, below is what I originally wrote about process in the thread I started just eight days ago. It's entitled http://www.brianmanzella.com/golfing-discussions/17951-john-jacobs-process.html

I thought I'd briefly describe how John Jacobs thought about the ideal way to improve golf swings and see whether people on the forum agree with him.

Right now, you shouldn't be working on six different swing changes. Instead, you should only be working on one or two particular changes to your swing. If your impacts are too steep, you need one or two shallowing moves. If your impacts are too shallow, you need one or two steepening moves.

If your impacts are neutral (zeroed out?), then to hit the ball longer and straighter you have to add one steepening and one shallowing move. The trick is finding which two particular moves help you the most at this particular moment. And you'll know they help you a lot by observing ballflight, TrackMan, video, etc.

If those two moves result in better ballflight, then you'll incorporate them. Eventually, you will have mastered them so well that you can add another shallowing move and another steepening move that make your ballflight even better! Plus, you'll have made huge strides toward making your swing resemble "optimal." Rinse, wash, repeat.

Do you guys agree that this is the way the general process is supposed to work? Or do you think it should ideally work some other way?

 

[Kevin Shields]

Lifter, as per my PM, I am willing to start completely over on this topic. First by saying I believe everyone enjoys your contributions. Second, I'm a really nice guy who also has some forum smart ass in him. And third, I don't believe I've misrepresented anything you said....at least I don't think so.

I'm getting a little lost. Your Jacobs post about improving swings was fine by me. I thought we were discussing your opinions about the right shoulder and/or how much time a swing change took for everybody...or most golfers. I do think it gets lost sometimes that there are a lot of people out there that are one tip away from significantly better golf. Everybody isn't on some "journey" through different levels of ball striking. Some just want to play better and probably don't get enough of what they're after here.

 

[faux_maestro]

If I'm writing things that are obviously clueless, feel free to explain why they are.

I'm saying that substantial swing changes are typically uncomfortable, so most golfers will revert back to their old tendencies. But if the "uncomfortable" swing change consistently results in superior ballflight, then "uncomfortable" might become "comfortable" in a hurry. The golfer will be afraid not to employ the swing change.

I've had many times where I've made SEVERAL BIG changes with a teacher but they clicked immediately because they were really good upgrades. It wasn't a problem of "being uncomfortable" but a matter of I had no idea how to actually play the game the new way in the context of shots on the course. Like Kevin's example, dude goes from hitting a 7 iron 135 to 155 and the first time out pulls 7 iron from 135. He's going to hit the ball WAY better but will probably end up 10+ shots worse on the course because he just doesn't know how to score with the new move, not because the new moves aren't comfortable.

I was lucky in high school, I had a teacher who was really good at fixing things in a way that I could IMMEDIATELY hit it better and feel comfortable with. I didn't usually score better immediately even though I hit it better. I had to learn how to play with the new upgrades.

 

[drewyallop]

This is fun!

No it isn't.

 

[cwdlaw223]

I get the feeling that Lifter truly wants to learn and he pulls from various sources. Very easy for the written word to be misconstrued at times. We need people to respectfully question. Lifter seems like a good example, Lia is not a good example of how to act IMO. Just my two cents.

We all know Lia is pro Voldemort and that's fine with me. Maybe he'll convert!!!

 

[dschultz6072]

Very slippery slope to be learning how to smack a golf ball from various teachers. Especially when some teachers have an agenda to push. I am not making jabs at anyone here, honestly. Golf is not the range. You're hitting shots on the course and the game is about score. Whatever change you make, you still have to be able to make shots. If you lose the ability to make shots and work the ball like it's your bitch because you're focusing on contorting and contriving positions, then what is the point? That's not even mentioning how to select shots and play good percentages. Some people might like to sit there and wack golf balls all day on the range but that should become uninteresting at some point. Then you gotta step on that first tee and do something.

 

[softconsult]

"Golf in not the range." Tell that to Hogan or Singh. Personally, I enjoy the range. But my range is simply a shag your own balls area at a course near me. Really an unusual and very nice thing. two tee levels, three yardage flags, a practice chipping green and two practice traps all this at a ho, hum public course that I never play. Usually max 2 or 3 people there at a time and often just me. That is the only place I stand a chance of implementing a new swing thought. I contend that for some of us a big part of the challenge is working to find a better swing and learning it on the practice tee. I play twice a week, but look forward to drifting over to the range and hitting a couple of shag bags with different clubs and different shot shapes.

 

[Lifter]

No it isn't.

Maybe I'm just wired differently? Some people think arguing about politics is unpleasant. I don't. Some people think arguing about golf........on the Internet is unpleasant. I don't.

 

[Lifter]

Very slippery slope to be learning how to smack a golf ball from various teachers. Especially when some teachers have an agenda to push. I am not making jabs at anyone here, honestly. Golf is not the range. You're hitting shots on the course and the game is about score. Whatever change you make, you still have to be able to make shots. If you lose the ability to make shots and work the ball like it's your bitch because you're focusing on contorting and contriving positions, then what is the point? That's not even mentioning how to select shots and play good percentages. Some people might like to sit there and wack golf balls all day on the range but that should become uninteresting at some point. Then you gotta step on that first tee and do something.

Free country! To each his own.

 

[dschultz6072]

"Golf in not the range." Tell that to Hogan or Singh. Personally, I enjoy the range. But my range is simply a shag your own balls area at a course near me. Really an unusual and very nice thing. two tee levels, three yardage flags, a practice chipping green and two practice traps all this at a ho, hum public course that I never play. Usually max 2 or 3 people there at a time and often just me. That is the only place I stand a chance of implementing a new swing thought. I contend that for some of us a big part of the challenge is working to find a better swing and learning it on the practice tee. I play twice a week, but look forward to drifting over to the range and hitting a couple of shag bags with different clubs and different shot shapes.

I'm not knocking practicing on the range. I used to and still try to hit as many shots on the range as I can because I like screwing around and figuring out how to hit different types of shots because I never know when I might need them. But I go there with the intention of becoming better at controlling the ball, and that is it. I have also been working very hard on the intentional topped drive (trying to hit the tip of the ball so it just falls off the tee), and hitting while walking through.

This is when you know you have reached the top of the heap:

 

[dschultz6072]

BTW, as Seymour Dunn said, "Never confuse something that happens with something you have to try to do."

That's for you, gentleman in the corner with the convertible top red hot rod.

 

[cwdlaw223]

Very slippery slope to be learning how to smack a golf ball from various teachers. Especially when some teachers have an agenda to push. I am not making jabs at anyone here, honestly. Golf is not the range. You're hitting shots on the course and the game is about score. Whatever change you make, you still have to be able to make shots. If you lose the ability to make shots and work the ball like it's your bitch because you're focusing on contorting and contriving positions, then what is the point? That's not even mentioning how to select shots and play good percentages. Some people might like to sit there and wack golf balls all day on the range but that should become uninteresting at some point. Then you gotta step on that first tee and do something.

Great points! Aint worth crap if you can't use the "changes" under pressure on the course. Otherwise, you have Frankenstein Golf like Voldemort (movement for the sake of movement rather than an integrated whole (DJ and Bubba swing completely different but they're "gold medal" winners)).

 

[magicmarker]

Thanks for the comments but it could be anybody. I was curious about the 2 handicap hand path comment. One of my biggest fears of a golf lesson is something like this. You think you have the perfect lesson. Golfer hits 7 iron 135 with a bloop fade, you catch lightning and get him hitting it 155 with a slight draw. So now he has, say 4 handicap skills instead of 20 handicap. But if he goes out and plays the same course, with the same mindset and strategy, the same fears, and worse of all, pulls 7 iron the first time he has 135, what was the lesson worth?

Kevin, I liked it better when you put it like this...

What's the point of hitting it better and using your old strategy. It's like getting a face transplant but still hitting on skanks.

 

[gmbtempe]

Some people might like to sit there and wack golf balls all day on the range but that should become uninteresting at some point.

I actually found this to be fun, I always like trying new things out and giving different concepts a try. Playing, while the end game, can be a bit stressful and always not a positivive experience.......if you care a lot about how you are playing.

Thats why I have resorted to drinking before, during, and after my rounds. Its been much more pleasureable.

 

[dschultz6072]

I actually found this to be fun, I always like trying new things out and giving different concepts a try. Playing, while the end game, can be a bit stressful and always not a positivive experience.......if you care a lot about how you are playing.

Thats why I have resorted to drinking before, during, and after my rounds. Its been much more pleasureable.

You should always have fun when you get to play. Some of us don't get much opportunity to play. Some of us don't get to play at all.

Don't take this the wrong way, because I don't like to be bad at anything. Nowadays I am happy to even have chances at birdie. But, the less I "care", the better I do at golf. I'm not out there playing for a living. The only one who really cares how well I play is myself, and maybe a few of my teacher buddies, so what's the big deal?