Science is not a Swing!

[birly-shirly]

Every word of the original post might be true, or cobblers, and it's still irrelevant to the enjoyment I get out of the game.

Everyone is always droning on about how the standard of the average golfer hasn't improved in something like 100 years. Nobody ever seems to comment on how golf, unlike sky-diving or inter-continental swimming or Moto GP, is a great sport to be crap at.

I'll continue to learn what I can about the game, and I'll practice with what time I can spare. Intellectually, I KNOW that this is not likely to transform my game. That's OK though. I enjoy being out there, and I enjoy what little knowledge I have. Don't tell me that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing - because nobody's getting hurt here.

I enjoy feeling like I've experimented or learned or applied something new, and I enjoy the illusions stoked by every good shot that chance allows me to hit.

If, heaven forbid, I had to get better at golf in order to feed my family - then obviously I'd feel differently about the learning process. But the fact is - I probably enjoy pissing about at this on my own more than I'd enjoy doing as I'm told by a proper expert and being twice the player that I currently am. Everything relative, innit?

 

[Rick Dandy]

If you have golf swings that vary, and if there is a struggle to achieve great golf by golfers that are willing to fail, and if some of those golfers survive the struggle to perform great golf, and if those great golfers who survived the struggle, pass on their knowledge to the next golfing generation, then that generation MUST be better suited to the circumstances by which all of this happened.

Almost every instructor of The Academy was a former student of Brian's and currently or formerly in competition on various tours around the world.

You do not need a swing coach, algorithms, guru's, or two sets of mitts. If great golf is copied with variation and selection then you must get a golf swing by design.

You can't stop it.

You can't stop someone from sleeping in their car all night, putting to street lamps and trying to practice next to the Merry Mex at La Quinta C.C., or borrowing a condo in Palm Desert, only to turn the bedroom into an indoor driving range.

You can't stop trackman, or ASII.

What we have here in Brian Manzella is a golf instructor in his purest form.

My best guess is that Brian hasn't started a thread or done a video on the golf swing in 2011 that hasn't had some portion of it copied or duplicated to the satisfaction of a student, teacher or enthusiast.

All in all, a pretty good deal.

 

[SteveT]

I appreciate all the insightful comments to my original posting... and I'm learning too.

Thanks.... SteveT

 

[OLIVER1]

At the invite of SteveT...
I was once a half-decent player, had aspirations to go on the European Tour and now stink the place up (but that's for a different thread!) I kinda know what it's like to play really good level golf so I'll throw in my 2 penny pieces...
When I used look at a video, or a series of stills from any top-level player, I always looked for the technique on show, the usual bits and pieces that all of us have scurried around in a vain attempt to replicate. Then I decided to take a look at the head of the golfer - JUST THE HEAD - , and, in my mind's-eye, try to picture what he was seeing and feeling as he made a golf swing, and it was remarkable to me how different my perspective became. I felt I was getting close to an intangible that no video, still shot or MATT system could ever adequately portray. (And, just maybe what Brian is talking about when he posits that no imagery can adequately put across that mystical causality of neuron-firing, motion, torque, etc that make up an effective swing. Apologies to Brian if I'm off-target here)
Humans are bipeds, which makes them particularly good at doing bipedal things, BUT at a trade-off: We are no good at flying for example. From an intellectual/neurological perspective it seems that humans are very good at complex calculus, for example so it’s no big leap to suggest that that also comes with a trade-off... but what are we trading here? We don't know and, moreover, we don't know what we don't know. I often think the same applies to golf: Some humans have great attributes (that they are or aren't aware of) and the trade-off makes them fundamentally unable to make an effective golf swing with conventional teaching wisdom at their beck and call, even if they perfectly duplicate every move Tiger, Jack or Hogan ever made (and of course, vice versa)
Where Brian, Michael et al are going now seems to be toward the golfing version of the seventh sense. They've had the balls to unlock that door that many of us have walked right by and only wondered about, simply 'cos there was no sign hung on it saying BACKSWING, DOWNSWING, SWINGPLANE etc. I'm equal parts fascinated and excited by the journey. I've a feeling that teachers, video, stills etc will become massively important to us again, but in ways that we, as of yet, cannot begin to fathom. That little lot will be the cart and our esteemed teachers here are busily building us the horse. My hats off to you all.
My apologies if this was a little rambly, but there you go...

 

[Dariusz J.]

The golf swing gets complicated when ignorance and incompetence mix in a homemade golf swing consciously attempted. You can't consciously think your way through a golfswing when playing, it must be automatic to be effective.

This is the sentence I fully agree with.

Cheers

 

[footwedge]

Originally Posted by SteveT
The golf swing gets complicated when ignorance and incompetence mix in a homemade golf swing consciously attempted. You can't consciously think your way through a golfswing when playing, it must be automatic to be effective.

This is the sentence I fully agree with.

Cheers



That's not exactly earth shattering news, especially when your always teaching yourself new tricks. It's never automatic till that little voice in there says it's happy with things the way they are.

 

[welshdentist]

In reality, a golf swing is a best guess by the brain to execute a swinging motion to hopefully hit the ball with the desired result. It's a best guess trial and error effort that is made consistent through practice.

The golf swing gets complicated when ignorance and incompetence mix in a homemade golf swing consciously attempted. You can't consciously think your way through a golfswing when playing, it must be automatic to be effective.

You think you can feel your golf swing but you can't even see it in your eye's mind. You mostly sense the arms and hands because they are the most brain sensitive parts of the swing. You can't really feel your feet, legs, hips, torso or shoulders in a meaningful manner because the feedback is too insensitive.

Even if you take videos of your golf swing, you will not be able to translate what you see into what you are feeling when you swing. A video is visually objective, a swing is subjective. Conscious change is only done in solitary practice, not on the golf course.

If you believe you can consciously attain a new scientific golf swing motion on your own, you are deluding yourself. What you imagine you have achieved today on the range will have either changed or disappeared tomorrow because you haven't developed secure and correct neuro-muscular pathways within your body. A huge amount of Hogan-like masochistic practice is necessary to make your instant 'magic move' an automatic part of your golf swing. Just because you 'know' doesn't mean you 'can'.

If you still think science will help you with your homemade golf swing think again. What will help you is a golf instructor who understands the sciences that define the golfswing, and can apply it to your swing faults, without even getting scientific about it. Curiously, some golfers believe if they know some scientific solution to their swing problem, they can transform that knowledge into an instantly cured golf swing. Hard to believe such dubious claims and on the internet too!

Only by submitting yourself to a qualified golf instructor/teacher to resolve your problems and who can then observe your golf swing progress can you succeed. An objective pair of eyes plus swing data (Trackman, videos, etc.) enables an experienced golf instructor to analyze your swing in action (kinematics) and then determine what (kinetic) force applications are required to fix your faults.

If you believe swing changes can be made permanent after a few tries, then you are kinesthetically superior to Hogan, Faldo, Woods, others, who when attempting to make swing changes have taken months if not years to attain the changes, and for most under the watchful eyes of their swing coach. No current professional golfer would dare make 'golf tip' swing changes on his/her own without the guidance of a swing coach. Trying it on their own would be risky, idiotic too!

A little bit of (scientific) knowledge is dangerous, because science is an objective not subjective experiment. It's difficult if not impossible to be totally objective about your golf swing in action, even from videos. Scientific miracles are only achieved under highly controlled laboratory conditions.

Brian and his associates are working to develop a more potent teaching method with their scientifically-based Project 1.68 knowledge. Reading about the science is fine, but trying to do it on your own is not advisable. Seek help.

Hall of fame post about trying to work it out on our own.

Find someone, trust them, work hard, get better.

 

[wulsy]

OLIVERO makes a good point. Crap golfers think differently to good golfers. They do not understand how to connect with the the body, club, maths, geometry, kinetics and they do not understand the process of change as it relates to golf.

It all in the coconut man, it all in the coconut.

 

[TeeAce]

OLIVERO makes a good point. Crap golfers think differently to good golfers. They do not understand how to connect with the the body, club, maths, geometry, kinetics and they do not understand the process of change as it relates to golf.

It all in the coconut man, it all in the coconut.

Exactly, but how they get that thinking?

I would say that 2D-videos with lousy frame rate and conclusions made by those has made many people thinking bad way the happenings in golf swing. Some teachers has been great because they have had "3D-eyes" and figure out what really happens in 3D, but there is still too many of those who just follow the lines on monitors. Good teachers has had all the time ability to step "into the video" and feel how the body works.

Science will open the eyes for all to see the truth behind the myths and start to work with real things. It's feel vs real fight for next couple of years.

 

[BrendanC]

Playing Devil's advocate:

"I want to run my golfswing on automatic" is a not a good aspiration.

People imagine they are going to reach some golfing nirvana where they don't have to try anymore. Never going to happen.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Geez....

Can a tip, an article, a post, a short or long video, or a conversation in person or on the phone transform you game.

HELL YES!!!

End of subject.


And.....


OBVIOUSLY, almost everyone is better off with a full time teacher.

But....that doesn't change the DEAD CORRECT statement above.

 

[SteveT]

But Brian, the average and wannabe golfers have experienced decades of golf tips and subjective "Golf My Way" golfswing books that assume all golfers have the same physique and capabilities... and the average golfer stats have not improved. The average golfer continues to struggle and gets little satisfaction from golf tips and even equipment promises are being ignored.

The average golfer is looking towards legitimate science to provide him with something that really works, because the old stuff has failed.

 

[SteveT]

Playing Devil's advocate:

"I want to run my golfswing on automatic" is a not a good aspiration.

People imagine they are going to reach some golfing nirvana where they don't have to try anymore. Never going to happen.

On a personal note.... some of my golf buddies ask me how I can play golf while remembering all that scientific stuff in swing thoughts.

I tell them I don't think about it at all, and just play on desire because when you are on the golf course stage you leave your conscious practice thoughts on the driving range and practice rounds.

I just dial into "desire" mode and tell myself to do this or that to achieve desired results. If I start to fail, I will either try harder to maintain my skills, or make small conscious adjustments that I know I can apply.

When you're on the stage, there is no time to abandon your skills and go into conscious practice mode. I want to enjoy myself on the golf course.

 

[dbl]

If the average golfer only picked out selective tips and used them, WHEN RIGHT FOR HIM, he could do quite a bit. Most people are not disciplined, nor knowledgeable either, and so can't "usually" do better on their own. Some exceptions occur. Where we are getting to now is that...."right information" trumps stuff that is "close."

 

[dschultz6072]

Let me fix this for you:

The average golfer is looking towards legitimate instruction to provide him with something that really works, because the old stuff has failed.

 

[SteveT]

Perhaps we should differentiate between a "feel" swing tip and a "scientific" swing tip.

When you see or read about a feel swing tip, the first feeling is "yeah, I can do that"... but a complex scientific swing tip would likely be (wtf) confusing and totally strange to the average golfer.

We have seen what a small dose of scientific mumbo-jumbo has done on this fine forum; it has created a schism between the "feel" types and the "analytical" types... the old champions supporters and the pure science buffs who question old knowledge and are seeking better solutions to their swing problems.

Perhaps the scientific aspects of the golfswing are better left to those who understand the underlying science and use it effectively when personally teaching the student golfer. A little (scientific) knowledge can be dangerous and blending in pragmatic thinking is the answer.

I look forward to seeing Brian and associates utilizing science in a manner to make it palatable to their students. It will be a big step forward in the golf instruction profession.

 

[leon]

Perhaps we should differentiate between a "feel" swing tip and a "scientific" swing tip.

When you see or read about a feel swing tip, the first feeling is "yeah, I can do that"... but a complex scientific swing tip would likely be (wtf) confusing and totally strange to the average golfer.

We have seen what a small dose of scientific mumbo-jumbo has done on this fine forum; it has created a schism between the "feel" types and the "analytical" types... the old champions supporters and the pure science buffs who question old knowledge and are seeking better solutions to their swing problems.

Perhaps the scientific aspects of the golfswing are better left to those who understand the underlying science and use it effectively when personally teaching the student golfer. A little (scientific) knowledge can be dangerous and blending in pragmatic thinking is the answer.

I look forward to seeing Brian and associates utilizing science in a manner to make it palatable to their students. It will be a big step forward in the golf instruction profession.

I'd be interested to know what you think a ' scientific' golf tip might look like.

Also, like others, you seem to suggest that the 'new scientific' info is contrary to previous info, like it is an either / or thing. Seems to me that it is actually validating a lot of what was already being done.

 

[ekennedy]

But Brian, the average and wannabe golfers have experienced decades of golf tips and subjective "Golf My Way" golfswing books that assume all golfers have the same physique and capabilities... and the average golfer stats have not improved. The average golfer continues to struggle and gets little satisfaction from golf tips and even equipment promises are being ignored.

The average golfer is looking towards legitimate science to provide him with something that really works, because the old stuff has failed.

If every single person in the world was given "legitimate science" as an explanation to play the game of golf rather than their current method...most of them would still struggle. Golf is hard and its still an athletic endeavor. Accurate information and science isn't the only thing holding players back. Heck, most pitching coaches know more about pitching mechanics than most Cy Young winners, but it didn't usually get them in the HOF.

Becoming a scratch golfer is not the highest priority in most people's lives.

If it ever becomes the highest priority in one's life, then that player will find the right teacher, apply the correct information, dedicate their lives to practice and enjoy the game more. Then again, with that type of single-minded dedication, it will be a lonely road.

Either way, don't expect scores in the mid-50's any time soon.

 

[dschultz6072]

Timing and rhythm. Timing and rhythm. Timing and rhythm.

There is the element of athleticism that people just can't wrap their head around. You can't teach someone to hit it further (read BETTER) than their body is capable of. Once you reach that plateau, you get stronger until you can. The people who think Snead or Jones or Couples or Hogan or Vijay or anyone else you'd just die to be able to hit the ball like were/are not physically strong (read stronger than YOU) and athletically inclined are out of their minds.

If science were the only case, you wouldn't have these cats on tour or the LDA hitting the gym. They'd be studying.

 

[magicmarker]

Timing and rhythm. Timing and rhythm. Timing and rhythm.

There is the element of athleticism that people just can't wrap their head around. You can't teach someone to hit it further (read BETTER) than their body is capable of. Once you reach that plateau, you get stronger until you can. The people who think Snead or Jones or Couples or Hogan or Vijay or anyone else you'd just die to be able to hit the ball like were/are not physically strong (read stronger than YOU) and athletically inclined are out of their minds.

If science were the only case, you wouldn't have these cats on tour or the LDA hitting the gym. They'd be studying.

So true, and FAR more flexible too. You gotta work with what you have. Knowledge may be the 'magic bullet', but you still gotta build your own gun...