Shaft flex
- Thread starter curtisj76
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I've been wondering this lately as well. I always play stiff shafts, and I have the swing speed for it, but does that definitively mean I should be playing todays' stiff shafts?
Brian commented not long ago that most people, even on tour, have no clue about iron shafts, and the trend towards making everything as stiff as possible is bad for the dynamics of golf swings in general.
Recently I stopped a golf shop and was trying out a 3 wood. I hit that 3 wood so ridiculously far (for me). About 270 yards! Could really feel the shaft load and smash the ball. When I bothered to look at the shaft, it was a Regular flex.
Now, I did have a problem with the face hooking over a few times, but the overall control was so much better than my normal stiff shaft 3 wood (with S300 shaft) that I found I could isolate why the clubface closed over without much trouble.
So is the lesson to play with as whippy of a shaft as you can reliably control?
Brian commented not long ago that most people, even on tour, have no clue about iron shafts, and the trend towards making everything as stiff as possible is bad for the dynamics of golf swings in general.
Recently I stopped a golf shop and was trying out a 3 wood. I hit that 3 wood so ridiculously far (for me). About 270 yards! Could really feel the shaft load and smash the ball. When I bothered to look at the shaft, it was a Regular flex.
Now, I did have a problem with the face hooking over a few times, but the overall control was so much better than my normal stiff shaft 3 wood (with S300 shaft) that I found I could isolate why the clubface closed over without much trouble.
So is the lesson to play with as whippy of a shaft as you can reliably control?
Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
S300 aren't that stiff imo. However you may not like the weight, kickpoint, feel of a dynamic gold. Try a rifle 5.5 demo somewhere and see what you think
curtisj76
New
Should I feel the club flex in the transition though?
mgranato
New
How a shaft feels to you and if that’s the “right” shaft for you depends on your swing (speed, tempo, transition, strength, and where the release occurs) and your own developed ability to sense the shaft bending. Typically, the better the player the more awareness/feel they have for the shafts bend profile.
Determining flex is easier when comparing shafts from one company, but not so easy when comparing shafts across companies. There is no industry standard for flex, so one company’s R may be another’s S. Regardless, they rate their flexes based on swing speed. That’s only a ball park grouping because not all 90 mph 5 irons are swung /released the same.
The only reliable way to tell if two different shafts are the same flex is to frequency test them at 6 locations along their uncut beam length. The shaft has to be measured at two locations at its butt, mid, and tip sections to get an accurate comparison. You cannot tell if two different shafts are the same flex by clamping the grip end in a freq analyzer – that will only tell you the butt stiffness of a shaft, not its overall flex.
Determining flex is easier when comparing shafts from one company, but not so easy when comparing shafts across companies. There is no industry standard for flex, so one company’s R may be another’s S. Regardless, they rate their flexes based on swing speed. That’s only a ball park grouping because not all 90 mph 5 irons are swung /released the same.
The only reliable way to tell if two different shafts are the same flex is to frequency test them at 6 locations along their uncut beam length. The shaft has to be measured at two locations at its butt, mid, and tip sections to get an accurate comparison. You cannot tell if two different shafts are the same flex by clamping the grip end in a freq analyzer – that will only tell you the butt stiffness of a shaft, not its overall flex.
S300 doesn't mean anything unfortunately. You have to put the shaft on a diagnostics machine and find out it's real CPM. I've gotten an R300 and an S300 that were only 10 cpm's apart at the same length. They make a lot of assumptions when they put shafts together.
My suggestion is that if you cannot feel the clubhead, yes you probably have too stiff of shafts. The other possibility is that the shaft is too heavy compared to the clubhead. It's a delicate balance between shaft weight and head weight. Most people (even club fitters) get it wrong all the time. This is especially true when you bring in the idea that a players swing is SUPPOSED to change as they work on it and their equipment should fit the swing they are trying to make, not the one they currently are making. But that's for another discussion.
My suggestion is that if you cannot feel the clubhead, yes you probably have too stiff of shafts. The other possibility is that the shaft is too heavy compared to the clubhead. It's a delicate balance between shaft weight and head weight. Most people (even club fitters) get it wrong all the time. This is especially true when you bring in the idea that a players swing is SUPPOSED to change as they work on it and their equipment should fit the swing they are trying to make, not the one they currently are making. But that's for another discussion.
mgranato
New
Interesting. Can you expound on this?
If you have a typical 123 gram steel iron shaft and a typical 271 gram 7 iron, what balance would you be looking for?
Richie3Jack
New
I played college golf with a guy that his hit driver about 330 yards on average and hit his 9-iron about 160-170 yards. And he used R300 shafts and swore by them.
I have some very stiff shafts in some of my clubs and some very flexible shafts in other club and distance really isn't an issue if the flex changes. Trajectory usually is though. I hit the whippier shafts higher that's for sure.
I would suggest you try that Mizuno shaft optimizer and get an idea of what shafts to use. Plus, there's always the possibility that the shafts you are using are not as stiff as they claim. I've had X-Stiff shafts measure out like a Lady's stiff shaft before.
3JACK
I have some very stiff shafts in some of my clubs and some very flexible shafts in other club and distance really isn't an issue if the flex changes. Trajectory usually is though. I hit the whippier shafts higher that's for sure.
I would suggest you try that Mizuno shaft optimizer and get an idea of what shafts to use. Plus, there's always the possibility that the shafts you are using are not as stiff as they claim. I've had X-Stiff shafts measure out like a Lady's stiff shaft before.
3JACK
vjsinger
New
I have a couple of friends at my club that are +4 handicaps and hit it very long, and they both have said they actually don't feel the shaft bend. They just really have a high awareness of where the clubhead is at all times. I thought that was interesting. I feel the shaft bend, but don't reallly have the most awareness of the clubhead at all times.
Frans@France
New
The distance between the steps are different between a TT dynamic gold R and S flex.
Go to True Temper : The #1 Shaft in Golf
At the bottom of the page you will find a text "Click to download shaft step-pattern guide: Parallel | Taper""
Frans@France
New
outdoor viewed or indoor calculated carry?
Yes, always! More comfort, less strain, less faitige
Chip Putterman
New
The problem is there is no industry standard on what flex is. One brand's stiff may act like another brand's regular. There are so many words to describe shaft flex. There's regular, men's, senior (?????), ladies, stiff, firm, uniflex, multi-flex, 3-digit numbers (S300), a number with a decimal (5.5), etc,etc,etc.
My suggestion: go hit some balls with different shafts.
My suggestion: go hit some balls with different shafts.
Frans@France
New
10 cpm is the correct difference between flex in the TT dynamic gold serie!
Also S300 as a shaft label doesn't indeed mean a thing as those bands are placed by people and they can f..up. However at the but end of any TT shaft you will always find the indication of the shaft including the Sx00 or Rx00 information.
No.
What are the tolerances allowed between shaft CPM measurements for TT? 8 cpms, 10 cpms, 20 cpms?
birly-shirly
New
I guess the question still stands from the OP: what are you missing out on if you play with the "wrong" flex?
Some fitters argue that the "right" flex is the most flexible you can still control. Others argue that the stiffest flex you can still strike well is the best fit. I have irons in regular, stiff and X - and I hook them all. It seems like the overwhelming majority of tour pros play DG in either S or X flex. I don't think shaft flex makes a huge difference to distance (though weight might have a marginal effect) and the effect on loft is probably marginal compared to having your lofts tweaked. I don't think there's any shaft in the world that I can put in my 2 iron to make it fly like my 19* hybrid. Ping, pioneers of mass-market fitting, made probably the best selling iron ever (some would say the best iron ever) and for a chunk of time there was NO choice of flex and by most fitters' estimates was probably too stiff. A good player's wedge might hit the ball anywhere from 30 feet to 100 yards. Frequency matching has been around as a concept for years - except, so far as I can gather, most fitters don't actually "match" the frequency across the set, they fit to a modest and consistent slope in changing flex - which makes no sense to me unless you plan on hitting your clubs always in the same sequence.
All of which leads me to suspect that shaft fitting for the majority of players (very good players and their drivers being the biggest exception) might be a bit overrated.
Some fitters argue that the "right" flex is the most flexible you can still control. Others argue that the stiffest flex you can still strike well is the best fit. I have irons in regular, stiff and X - and I hook them all. It seems like the overwhelming majority of tour pros play DG in either S or X flex. I don't think shaft flex makes a huge difference to distance (though weight might have a marginal effect) and the effect on loft is probably marginal compared to having your lofts tweaked. I don't think there's any shaft in the world that I can put in my 2 iron to make it fly like my 19* hybrid. Ping, pioneers of mass-market fitting, made probably the best selling iron ever (some would say the best iron ever) and for a chunk of time there was NO choice of flex and by most fitters' estimates was probably too stiff. A good player's wedge might hit the ball anywhere from 30 feet to 100 yards. Frequency matching has been around as a concept for years - except, so far as I can gather, most fitters don't actually "match" the frequency across the set, they fit to a modest and consistent slope in changing flex - which makes no sense to me unless you plan on hitting your clubs always in the same sequence.
All of which leads me to suspect that shaft fitting for the majority of players (very good players and their drivers being the biggest exception) might be a bit overrated.
Frans@France
New
Within the same shaft type? like what cpm tolerance is allowed when buying 10 TT dynamic gold S100? Those "raw" cpm reading should not more then 2 cpm off between each other.
softconsult
New
"Frequency matching has been around as a concept for years - except, so far as I can gather, most fitters don't actually "match" the frequency across the set, they fit to a modest and consistent slope in changing flex - which makes no sense to me unless you plan on hitting your clubs always in the same sequence."
Frequency Matching refers to making the difference in cpm's the same as you progress through the set. It does not mean that each club has the same frequency.
"All of which leads me to suspect that shaft fitting for the majority of players (very good players and their drivers being the biggest exception) might be a bit overrated."
Under utilized would be my comment. I can almost guarantee that the vast majority of
players in my Seniors League have never been through a true modern club fitting.
I can tell you with absolute confidence that when I had my last Driver fitting done on Trackman, trying various shafts on the same head yielded obvious changes in the data.
I'm going to have a full blown iron fitting done at a Ping center on Thursday. I hope the cart will have KBS Tour in addition to the AWT, Z-Z65, and Dynamic Gold shafts. Will be interesting to see the actual data from n-Flight system for the various combinations.
Frequency Matching refers to making the difference in cpm's the same as you progress through the set. It does not mean that each club has the same frequency.
"All of which leads me to suspect that shaft fitting for the majority of players (very good players and their drivers being the biggest exception) might be a bit overrated."
Under utilized would be my comment. I can almost guarantee that the vast majority of
players in my Seniors League have never been through a true modern club fitting.
I can tell you with absolute confidence that when I had my last Driver fitting done on Trackman, trying various shafts on the same head yielded obvious changes in the data.
I'm going to have a full blown iron fitting done at a Ping center on Thursday. I hope the cart will have KBS Tour in addition to the AWT, Z-Z65, and Dynamic Gold shafts. Will be interesting to see the actual data from n-Flight system for the various combinations.
Frans@France
New
Like with all things in life, it depends. If the golfer doesn't stress the shaft until the end of the swing just before contact he will not be missing out.....but if the shaft is stressed at take-away and/or transition and/or with a double release... so really stressing the shaft... the drop en forward bend of the shaft will not be the same between swings when the flex is not correct and therefor the deviation left/right and carry deviation will be larger then expected.
Again depends on the fitter : most will either incorrectly try to create slope, others will follow the shaft designer (which is much better).
But if you really are willing to pay then a fitter can fit EVERY club with the correct shaft. It will take a serious amount of time however and therefor not economical viable.
A short-cut could be to fit the Iron9 and Iron6 and Iron 3 independed so a correct flex profil can be made. however again this takes some real time and is costly.
softconsult
New
My recollection regarding TT Dynamic Gold is that it's simply a weight sorting process between flexes. I doubt they are recording frequencies for this mass produced shaft.
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