Shaft flex

[Frans@France]

My recollection regarding TT Dynamic Gold is that it's simply a weight sorting process between flexes. I doubt they are recording frequencies for this mass produced shaft.

your memory is correct that the flex of the TT dynamic gold equals weight, so more weight means more flex. But more material is needed to create a stiffer shaft...............

however

If you would look at the step design you will see that the R/S/X are the same shaft but only the lenght of the tip is different, and as the raw length is the same.... less tip more but length...and the but is the most heavy and rigid part of the shaft.

It is because of this that this shaft is so good for fitting and creating "flexes" in between.

 

[Frans@France]

Yup that was my question. Do they measure every shaft prior to shipping?

No, due to the fact that the technique of creating steel shafts is so well know (and old) and reliable the consistancy is very good.

 

[mgranato]

I guess the question still stands from the OP: what are you missing out on if you play with the "wrong" flex?

Some fitters argue that the "right" flex is the most flexible you can still control. Others argue that the stiffest flex you can still strike well is the best fit. I have irons in regular, stiff and X - and I hook them all. It seems like the overwhelming majority of tour pros play DG in either S or X flex. I don't think shaft flex makes a huge difference to distance (though weight might have a marginal effect) and the effect on loft is probably marginal compared to having your lofts tweaked. I don't think there's any shaft in the world that I can put in my 2 iron to make it fly like my 19* hybrid. Ping, pioneers of mass-market fitting, made probably the best selling iron ever (some would say the best iron ever) and for a chunk of time there was NO choice of flex and by most fitters' estimates was probably too stiff. A good player's wedge might hit the ball anywhere from 30 feet to 100 yards. Frequency matching has been around as a concept for years - except, so far as I can gather, most fitters don't actually "match" the frequency across the set, they fit to a modest and consistent slope in changing flex - which makes no sense to me unless you plan on hitting your clubs always in the same sequence.

All of which leads me to suspect that shaft fitting for the majority of players (very good players and their drivers being the biggest exception) might be a bit overrated.

Very astute, Birly.

There is much less "going on" with steel shafts in irons than with graphite shafts in a driver. With steel, you have a little bit of choice with weight and a small selection of bend profiles. Flex is predominantly the main fitting option for steel iron shafts. Because there is such little forward flexing through impact with an iron, and because the vast majority of golfers release the club early - the effect flex has with an iron is often reduced steeply downward. For the majority of golfers, weight is much more important than flex with steel iron shafts.

That being said, what the shaft (any shaft) does more than any other component is effect how the golfer swings the club. By altering just the shaft, I can alter how you swing the club and how the club feels. Ballistically, the head has the biggest influence on the shot. But how the shot feels, and how hard it is to perform primarily has to do with the shaft. The release point, tempo, path, etc. can all be altered by the shaft in the club. For good swings, the trick is to find a shaft that doesn't interfere with all those aspects.

Frequency matching is one of the most misused/misunderstood applications in fitting. If the goal is have all the clubs swing, feel, and play the same then MOI matching is your best means of getting there. Problem is it requires more work than most fitters are willing to do, and it is impossible for an OEM to offer MOI matching.

 

[Frans@France]

There is much less "going on" with steel shafts in irons than with graphite shafts in a driver. With steel, you have a little bit of choice with weight and a small selection of bend profiles. Flex is predominantly the main fitting option for steel iron shafts. Because there is such little forward flexing through impact with an iron, and because the vast majority of golfers release the club early - the effect flex has with an iron is often reduced steeply downward. For the majority of golfers, weight is much more important than flex with steel iron shafts.

That being said, what the shaft (any shaft) does more than any other component is effect how the golfer swings the club. By altering just the shaft, I can alter how you swing the club and how the club feels. Ballistically, the head has the biggest influence on the shot. But how the shot feels, and how hard it is to perform primarily has to do with the shaft. The release point, tempo, path, etc. can all be altered by the shaft in the club. For good swings, the trick is to find a shaft that doesn't interfere with all those aspects.

Yes, nice posting.

Frequency matching is one of the most misused/misunderstood applications in fitting. If the goal is have all the clubs swing, feel, and play the same then MOI matching is your best means of getting there. Problem is it requires more work than most fitters are willing to do, and it is impossible for an OEM to offer MOI matching.

....mhhh.... let me quote you but slightly adjusted ""MOI is one of the most misused/misunderstood applications in fitting. "

flat line MOI, descending, ascending MOI, MOI for a player playing the ball in a different position in his stance depending on the club? Let me repeat myself replace FLEX by MOI

QUOTE
"But if you really are willing to pay then a fitter can fit EVERY club with the correct shaft. It will take a serious amount of time however and therefor not economical viable.

A short-cut could be to fit the Iron9 and Iron6 and Iron 3 independed so a correct MOI profil can be made. however again this takes some real time and is costly. "
END-QUOTE

 

[birly-shirly]

"Frequency matching has been around as a concept for years - except, so far as I can gather, most fitters don't actually "match" the frequency across the set, they fit to a modest and consistent slope in changing flex - which makes no sense to me unless you plan on hitting your clubs always in the same sequence."

Frequency Matching refers to making the difference in cpm's the same as you progress through the set. It does not mean that each club has the same frequency.

"All of which leads me to suspect that shaft fitting for the majority of players (very good players and their drivers being the biggest exception) might be a bit overrated."

Under utilized would be my comment. I can almost guarantee that the vast majority of
players in my Seniors League have never been through a true modern club fitting.

I can tell you with absolute confidence that when I had my last Driver fitting done on Trackman, trying various shafts on the same head yielded obvious changes in the data.

I'm going to have a full blown iron fitting done at a Ping center on Thursday. I hope the cart will have KBS Tour in addition to the AWT, Z-Z65, and Dynamic Gold shafts. Will be interesting to see the actual data from n-Flight system for the various combinations.

"little utilised" I could agree with. "under utilised" depends on how real and substantial you think the benefits are.

I agree that driver shaft fitting has real payoffs for a better player - but I think you'd better have a pretty consistent swing pattern to benefit. I also think graphite shafts are A GOOD THING in woods, and there's probably more variability between different graphite shafts (compared to steel) - which maybe makes shaft fitting in woods more of an issue.

I'm less convinced of the benefits for irons, especially choosing amongst steel shafts - but it would certainly be interesting to hear back from your experience with Ping. Maybe if you remember you'll ask whether Karsten was right or wrong when he sent all those Eye 2s out with ZZ-lites?

 

[Frans@France]

.... I don't think there's any shaft in the world that I can put in my 2 iron to make it fly like my 19* hybrid....

No, but I can find a 2 iron with a shaft that flies like your 19D hybrid

 

[birly-shirly]

Very astute, Birly.

There is much less "going on" with steel shafts in irons than with graphite shafts in a driver. With steel, you have a little bit of choice with weight and a small selection of bend profiles. Flex is predominantly the main fitting option for steel iron shafts. Because there is such little forward flexing through impact with an iron, and because the vast majority of golfers release the club early - the effect flex has with an iron is often reduced steeply downward. For the majority of golfers, weight is much more important than flex with steel iron shafts.

That being said, what the shaft (any shaft) does more than any other component is effect how the golfer swings the club. By altering just the shaft, I can alter how you swing the club and how the club feels. Ballistically, the head has the biggest influence on the shot. But how the shot feels, and how hard it is to perform primarily has to do with the shaft. The release point, tempo, path, etc. can all be altered by the shaft in the club. For good swings, the trick is to find a shaft that doesn't interfere with all those aspects.

Frequency matching is one of the most misused/misunderstood applications in fitting. If the goal is have all the clubs swing, feel, and play the same then MOI matching is your best means of getting there. Problem is it requires more work than most fitters are willing to do, and it is impossible for an OEM to offer MOI matching.

I get your point about how the "feel" of a particular shaft will influence the golfer. Purely from my own experience, I wonder though whether this is something that the golfer gets used to and adjusts accordingly. I've sometimes picked up new irons and first though "Hell - that's stiff". For a while, I feel there's a tendency to lash at the ball and mistime it - but I also feel that that settles down with practice - though probably after more balls than you'd see in a fitting session.

What are your thoughts on MOI matching? You said "If the goal is to have all the clubs feel and play the same..." That might be quite a large "if", no?
I can entirely understand the practical/cost reasons why the mass market might never go there, but have you seen real benefits from that kind of matching? My gut instinct (though I'm open to argument) is that I might want my driver and my wedge to play quite differently.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

while i haven't read the whole thread Frans seems like he's cleaning it up well.

in short you cannot compare a dynamic gold to a rifle using CPM's. Let me bold this so everyone understands:

DYNAMIC GOLD SHAFTS ARE NOT AND NOT MEANT TO CPM MATCHED.

K, so you want a True Temper product that is CPM or "frequency" matched is the True Temper Black Gold.

----------------------------------

ANYWAY, back to my original statement for the original poster: If you are currently playing S300s and want to try something in similar flex by someone else, try a rifle 5.5 unflighted. Try to get something in a similar swing weight if possible.

Thanks

 

[birly-shirly]

No, but I can find a 2 iron with a shaft that flies like your 19D hybrid

I don't doubt it! Can you say how you'd go about it?

I've sometimes wondered whether the benefits of lofted woods and hybrids wouldn't be less dramatic if the gaps between irons, particularly long irons, weren't fixed at 1/2inch in length and 3 - 4* in loft. Even then though I'd guess that you'd still lose some forgiveness by not having the CoG so far behind the face as in a hybrid.

Plus, buying a hybrid is probably cheaper than my kitting out a workshop to tinker with club specs!

 

[jpeck]

No, but I can find a 2 iron with a shaft that flies like your 19D hybrid

This is about the best post on clubfitting I've ever read. Frans clearly understands what clubfitting is all about. Good, solid, info from mgranato and Jim K too.

As far as the OP goes, I think you have the right flex if you can just pull a club out of your bag, waggle it, and hit a good shot straight away. If you have to stand there and rev up your swing with faster and faster practice swings, I would expect your shafts are too stiff.

But it depends on the results, and Trackman is a great way to find out for sure.

 

[mgranato]

....mhhh.... let me quote you but slightly adjusted ""MOI is one of the most misused/misunderstood applications in fitting. "

flat line MOI, descending, ascending MOI, MOI for a player playing the ball in a different position in his stance depending on the club? Let me repeat myself replace FLEX by MOI

QUOTE
"But if you really are willing to pay then a fitter can fit EVERY club with the correct shaft. It will take a serious amount of time however and therefor not economical viable.

A short-cut could be to fit the Iron9 and Iron6 and Iron 3 independed so a correct MOI profil can be made. however again this takes some real time and is costly. "
END-QUOTE

Don't twist my words..

Maybe it's missed/over used in the UK, but in the states very few sets are MOI matched. The predominant standard here is still to have all the clubs built to a specific swing weight - regardless of what the overall static weight of the club may be.

But as you correctly pointed out, taking the time to get every club spot on is something that most fitters don't/can't/won't do, or most players don't/can't/won't pay for. However, I hope we agree that sticking the grip end in a clamp, twanging the tip end, and getting a CPM is not the way to determine the flex of a set of clubs.

Hell, it's rare that a fitter and player will take the time properly adjust every iron for the correct dynamic lie angle, but they'll spend two hours hitting every shaft ever made.

 

[mgranato]

Everything you're touching on is what should be in a true custom bag fitting and build. The level to which that "matters" is hard to say. At what point does a lesson with Trackman matter? I guess it depends on the level of doubt and guess work you want to remove from the equation. There are distinct and tangible improvements to your game that can be achieved with how your clubs are fit and built. There are also more subtle tweaks that can be done that might only be noticed by a select group of players.

I get your point about how the "feel" of a particular shaft will influence the golfer. Purely from my own experience, I wonder though whether this is something that the golfer gets used to and adjusts accordingly. I've sometimes picked up new irons and first though "Hell - that's stiff". For a while, I feel there's a tendency to lash at the ball and mistime it - but I also feel that that settles down with practice - though probably after more balls than you'd see in a fitting session.

Feel is certainly important to different levels of player, but I was speaking more about the physical properties of the shaft effecting the how the club is swung. I see your point, though. My experience has been that the better the player (the more ingrained and "automatic" their swing is) the quicker they will dismiss a shaft based on it's interference with how they like to swing. If you've ever witnessed a tour pro try a new shaft, you'll know what I mean. More often than not, they will like or dislike a shaft in one or two balls. The rest of us wind up eventually fitting to our clubs rather than the other way around.

What are your thoughts on MOI matching? You said "If the goal is to have all the clubs feel and play the same..." That might be quite a large "if", no? I can entirely understand the practical/cost reasons why the mass market might never go there, but have you seen real benefits from that kind of matching? My gut instinct (though I'm open to argument) is that I might want my driver and my wedge to play quite differently.

The MOI I'm speaking to basically revolves around the overall weight and balance of each club - a more modern version of swing weighting. Having your clubs require the same "effort" to swing is a better way to go than just saying I play everything at D2 (without any regard for overall static weight). Doing so usually involves shorter graduated lengths (less than the stand .5"), and a smaller weight gap between the standard static head weights. It's possible, but more difficult to get every club within the same MOI. What's more common is to have the driver/3 wood together, hybrid/long irons together, and short irons/wedges together - but it all really depends on what the individual player likes and prefers. Customizing to what the player needs, where else have I heard that?

 

[Ringer]

Interesting. Can you expound on this?

If you have a typical 123 gram steel iron shaft and a typical 271 gram 7 iron, what balance would you be looking for?

It's not just those two factors, there is of course the player. The balance I am speaking of is the weight of the clubs shaft AND head to the players ideal swing.

 

[Ringer]

No, due to the fact that the technique of creating steel shafts is so well know (and old) and reliable the consistancy is very good.

Um.. no. Again, same shaft, same label.. WAY different CPM readings. It is not uncommon to have to buy 15 shafts to reshaft 10 clubs. Did it MANY times back when I had to go to Golfsmith to buy the shafts for my students.

 

[Ringer]

Very astute, Birly.

There is much less "going on" with steel shafts in irons than with graphite shafts in a driver. With steel, you have a little bit of choice with weight and a small selection of bend profiles. Flex is predominantly the main fitting option for steel iron shafts. Because there is such little forward flexing through impact with an iron, and because the vast majority of golfers release the club early - the effect flex has with an iron is often reduced steeply downward. For the majority of golfers, weight is much more important than flex with steel iron shafts.

That being said, what the shaft (any shaft) does more than any other component is effect how the golfer swings the club. By altering just the shaft, I can alter how you swing the club and how the club feels. Ballistically, the head has the biggest influence on the shot. But how the shot feels, and how hard it is to perform primarily has to do with the shaft. The release point, tempo, path, etc. can all be altered by the shaft in the club. For good swings, the trick is to find a shaft that doesn't interfere with all those aspects.

Frequency matching is one of the most misused/misunderstood applications in fitting. If the goal is have all the clubs swing, feel, and play the same then MOI matching is your best means of getting there. Problem is it requires more work than most fitters are willing to do, and it is impossible for an OEM to offer MOI matching.

Absolutely agree.

 

[mgranato]

It's not just those two factors, there is of course the player. The balance I am speaking of is the weight of the clubs shaft AND head to the players ideal swing.

Gotcha, I'm following you better now.