shaft lean, accuracy, and the D plane

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thefuture37

Banned
a lot has been written about the d plane, shaft lean, and accuracy. theory says that minimal shaft lean is more accurate(i.e. the johnny miller in his 1/2 yard accuracy prime). however, one of the most accurate golfers ever, Trevino, had just about as much shaft lean possible. is it every instructor's opinion here that minimal shaft lean is better than maximal? does teaching minimal shaft lean have the possible downside of turning someone into a flipper?
 
K

Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
I've recently started with a college player who has more delay and more lean than anyone ive ever seen. Hits a huuuuuuuge draw. Armed with D-Plane knowledge, we've straightened his plane line a tad, left the lean alone, but aimed him left and adjusted his face until he hit it straight. I do not agree that minimal lean is MORE accurate. Just so long as you can match the face to that lean and know where to aim.
 
B

Brian Manzella

Administrator
Shaft Lean and Hitting It Straight

Nothing wrong with banging down on the ball...

If you know where to aim.

There is a certain amount of shaft lean BUILT IN to the geometry of the golf club. So you have to deal with that as well.

There are "Flippers" who can't play dead in a war movie, and there are "Scrapers," "Polishers," and "Pickers," all on the PGA TOUR.

And for the 1,234th time, "Shaft Lean"—the amount the clubshaft leans toward the target at impact, is NOT a one to one relationship to hitting down.

Some pics from a few years back to illustrate this point:

lowpoint1.gif

lowpoint2.gif

lowpoint3.gif

lowpoint4.gif
 
T

thefuture37

Banned
ok here is the follow up for your two. if you have a student that can literally do whatever you tell him to do(he doesn't have his "own" swing for sake of argument. hes never played golf), do you teach him minimal lean or maximal lean(nothing in between!)
 
vjsinger

vjsinger

New
Brian Manzella said:
Nothing wrong with banging down on the ball...

If you know where to aim.

There is a certain amount of shaft lean BUILT IN to the geometry of the golf club. So you have to deal with that as well.

There are "Flippers" who can't play dead in a war movie, and there are "Scrapers," "Polishers," and "Pickers," all on the PGA TOUR.

And for the 1,234th time, "Shaft Lean"—the amount the clubshaft leans toward the target at impact, is NOT a one to one relationship to hitting down.

Some pics from a few years back to illustrate this point:

lowpoint1.gif

lowpoint2.gif

lowpoint3.gif

lowpoint4.gif
Click to expand...

HALLELUJAH.....I GET IT, IGET IT WHOOOHOOOOOOOOAWESOME. THANKS BRIAN.
 
vjsinger

vjsinger

New
Are these images from the Physics of Golf book I've heard you guys refer to in previous posts? I have not read that book. Is the book a good read or is it complicated..I'm not that bright:D
 
mjstrong

mjstrong

New
Kevin Shields said:
I've recently started with a college player who has more delay and more lean than anyone ive ever seen. Hits a huuuuuuuge draw. Armed with D-Plane knowledge, we've straightened his plane line a tad, left the lean alone, but aimed him left and adjusted his face until he hit it straight. I do not agree that minimal lean is MORE accurate. Just so long as you can match the face to that lean and know where to aim.
Click to expand...

Right, the amount of shaft lean that is most repeatable for the student would be the first factor, and then you'd adjust the face and aim accordingly.
 
T

Tball88

New
Just to break this down to the lowest common dominator, the less the shaft lean the less likely the ball is to go left, correct? and the more shaft lean the more likely the ball will go left, given the same face conditions.

Is that right?
 
J

James Marshall (Hogan1953)

New member
Brian Manzella said:
Nothing wrong with banging down on the ball...

If you know where to aim.

There is a certain amount of shaft lean BUILT IN to the geometry of the golf club. So you have to deal with that as well.

There are "Flippers" who can't play dead in a war movie, and there are "Scrapers," "Polishers," and "Pickers," all on the PGA TOUR.

And for the 1,234th time, "Shaft Lean"—the amount the clubshaft leans toward the target at impact, is NOT a one to one relationship to hitting down.

Some pics from a few years back to illustrate this point:

lowpoint1.gif

lowpoint2.gif

lowpoint3.gif

lowpoint4.gif
Click to expand...

Brian,

Is it the same amount of lean built into every club or does it vary?

Thanks,

James
 
Richie3Jack

Richie3Jack

New
Is the aim for the college player with massive lean to have him aim left, ala Trevino?

Is this the same type principle Brian described in his Trackman findings about if you want to hit the short irons/wedges straight, you aim left with your stance because you're coming down so much at the ball?




3JACK
great illustrations, btw
 
M

multi

New
Brian,

After seeing these pictures it obviously depends, but which irons are the most conducive for aiming "straight at the target"? According to the D plane your wedges you should aim left/open your stance, and driver is closed slightly aim right. For most people, which irons would you aim square to the target?
 
K

Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
Richie3Jack said:
Is the aim for the college player with massive lean to have him aim left, ala Trevino?

Is this the same type principle Brian described in his Trackman findings about if you want to hit the short irons/wedges straight, you aim left with your stance because you're coming down so much at the ball?




3JACK
great illustrations, btw
Click to expand...

Swing a little more left, aim a little more left.
 
B

Brian Manzella

Administrator
tongzilla said:
I'm baffled. :confused:

So what did I do when I aimed straight at my target and hit a straight shot? Is that not suppose to happen?
Click to expand...

I meant "if you swung dead pure straight" like Iron Byron or Ping Man 5, you HAVE TO AIM LEFT YO HIT STRAIGHT.

One more time:

PING MAN 5 & Iron Byron aims left on all shots off the ground...

To hit a dead straight ball. :eek:
 
tongzilla

tongzilla

New
Brian Manzella said:
I meant "if you swung dead pure straight" like Iron Byron or Ping Man 5, you HAVE TO AIM LEFT YO HIT STRAIGHT.

One more time:

PING MAN 5 & Iron Byron aims left on all shots off the ground...

To hit a dead straight ball. :eek:
Click to expand...

So you must hit pushes to get a straight shot?
 
B

Brian Manzella

Administrator
tongzilla said:
So you must hit pushes to get a straight shot?
Click to expand...

No, you have to SWING LEFT to hit a straight ball off of the ground.

You could aim right, and still swing left.

Funny, remember the idiots that called swinging left "avoidance?"

They were the ones "avoiding" the truth.
 
tongzilla

tongzilla

New
I see...or maybe not...

Brian Manzella said:
No, you have to SWING LEFT to hit a straight ball off of the ground.

You could aim right, and still swing left.

Funny, remember the idiots that called swinging left "avoidance?"

They were the ones "avoiding" the truth.
Click to expand...

I see.

Let me try to clarify to see if I'm on the right page.

Straight Iron Shot Off The Deck

Clubhead needs to go outside-in at impact relative to the target line for a straight iron shot.

True clubface direction needs to be square to the target line (?).

So you can AIM left, right or square and still hit a straight shot as long as the club is doing the above two things.

More confusion: even if the clubhead is going outside-in relative to the target line, it's actually going inside-out relative to your swing because the clubhead still hasn't reached low point yet.

Mr Brian Manzella, please confirm my above statements.
 
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