Short irons tell us more than you think

[Ringer]

One of the interesting phenomenon that we know about the D-Plane (and really it's been partially known for a long time) is that you can curve the ball more with your longer clubs, and very little with the short ones.

We can use this to our advantage.

Practice PATH with long clubs.
Practice FACE with short clubs.

The reason is that the results are more dramatic with each. When you have a sharp draw with your 3 iron, the same swing with a PW would be a push right. The reason is because with a 3 iron the path can make up for the clubface being out of alignment. If you have the face a degree or two open of the target with your 3 iron, you can produce a 5-10 yard draw to bring the ball back to the target simply by swinging a little out to the right.

You cannot make the same path adjustments to hit a 9 iron at your target. The ball simply won't draw 5-10 yards unless you exaggerate the path the the point of almost duck hooking it.

This hopefully will be a light bulb to many of you who have one problem shot with shorter irons and a different problem with longer clubs.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

sorry, completely disagree and feel you have it backwards.

the reason its harder to curve short irons has to do with the imparted backspin on the ball from the LOFT, nothing else. You give me a PW with 40* on it and i'll hook it like the 8* it really is.

 

[Ringer]

What does trackman say?

 

[holeout]

Sorry Steve, but I have to disagree as well. You're honestly saying that it is easier to correct clubface problems with a 3-iron than a pitching wedge? I don't think so.

 

[Ringer]

Sorry Steve, but I have to disagree as well. You're honestly saying that it is easier to correct clubface problems with a 3-iron than a pitching wedge? I don't think so.

No, exactly the opposite. Kevin is saying that it's easier to correct face issues with a long iron. I am saying you learn from short irons where your face is and you easily see path with the longer clubs.

 

[spktho]

sorry, completely disagree and feel you have it backwards.

the reason its harder to curve short irons has to do with the imparted backspin on the ball from the LOFT, nothing else. You give me a PW with 40* on it and i'll hook it like the 8* it really is.

Ya, if I understand the D plane correctly; the lower the lofted the club, the more the ball starts where the face is pointing. So, with a sand wedge, the ball may start only about 70% where the club face is pointing(I don't know the real number, some Trackman gurus probably do).

 

[greenfree]

No, exactly the opposite. Kevin is saying that it's easier to correct face issues with a long iron. I am saying you learn from short irons where your face is and you easily see path with the longer clubs.

I disagree, you are going to learn face issues from a club with less loft than a club with a lot of loft. Think about it, lay a lob wedge wide open and it's going higher, open up your driver the same and it's going sideways off the planet regardless of your path. You don't even need to know d-plane for that.

 

[Kevin Shields]

I disagree, you are going to learn face issues from a club with less loft than a club with a lot of loft. Think about it, lay a lob wedge wide open and it's going higher, open up your driver the same and it's going sideways off the planet regardless of your path. You don't even need to know d-plane for that.

Grennfree is right. You would learn face more from a putter - less loft / more face affects starting direction

 

[Ringer]

Do you all remember how the axis tilt of the spin on the ball will be 90 degrees to the D Plane? Well, what happens when the loft is higher but the difference between path and face angle (Left or right of the target) are the same?

 

[Ringer]

No one?

 

[dbl]

There would be more and more of a vertical component of the side spin with greater loft.

I'm not sure how that helps your argument. I can see how with low lofted clubs you could set your path and then work on face...observe hooks or slices and know what the face was relative to the path. Then I think with high lofted clubs you lose the ability to judge so well since the outcomes are less face oriented. But imo that doesn't mean you can set the face and work on path issues or whatever.

So my work vote is work on face issues with low lofted irons, and skip the higher ones period, for face/path training.

 

[Ringer]

Right, the tilt of the spin axis would become more level the greater the loft on the club.

I'm also thinking this has major implications with the putter. Since the loft is nearly 0 degree's, the spin axis would be nearly 90 degrees to the putting surface. No wonder path has a big influence on the ball. It may not account for initial direction but any path issue will result in some side spin that will immediately start the ball off course once the ball gains traction.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Long Irons vs. Short Irons + Path vs. Clubface

Here is the scoop.

Short irons can produce shots that LOOK STRAIGHTish with PATHS that are WAY WAY off of zero.

Long irons can't.

There is basically no way to determine how OFF a path is except with a measurement device.

Sorry.

 

[Ringer]

Agree with the first part, but not with the second.

We may not be measuring it when we practice with long club, but certainly it becomes much more predominant in resulting ball flight. The ball simply curves more dramatically with longer clubs than it does with shorter ones. Using that knowledge, I am simply stating that if you want to work on face short irons will give you a much more accurate result. If you want to work on path, then curvature of ball flight is more dramatic with longer irons and thus small differences make a difference.

 

[Chip Putterman]

I can usually hit my long irons straighter than my short irons. I tend to pull or draw my short irons. Any ideas why?

 

[Bigwill]

I can usually hit my long irons straighter than my short irons. I tend to pull or draw my short irons. Any ideas why?

Maybe a ball position issue?

 

[jake2]

I can usually hit my long irons straighter than my short irons. I tend to pull or draw my short irons. Any ideas why?

I'd say issue with closed clubface.
Not easy to say from ball flight about the path, especially with wedges, except that for a draw face must be quite bit closed to the path, so in that case path could be in to out.
If you deloft your short irons a lot, then the path/face differences might not need to be as much for a draw, but I think that depends also on angle of attack.

 

[Ringer]

I can usually hit my long irons straighter than my short irons. I tend to pull or draw my short irons. Any ideas why?

Pull or draw? Is it a draw back to the target or one that starts left and keeps going left?

 

[Chip Putterman]

With irons 9 thru Lob wedge, I tend to hit a draw that starts right and curves toward the target or a draw that starts toward the target and curves left. My ball position is the same for every club in the bag; two inches inside of my left heel. I set up open for short-iron shots.

 

[mjstrong]

Intuitively (since I'm in the shop right now, not thinking about it too much), a short iron with the same d-plane alignments as a long iron sharp draw will look like more of a pull draw.

You don't see too many push hooks with the wedges, they usually look more like pull draws...I haven't quite wrapped my head around exactly why yet though...