Softdraw illustration

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Dear god this is like telling me santa claus, the tooth ferry and pots of gold at the ends of rainbows don't exist! Just doesn't make sense to me.....

Brian,

Can you tell me why clubs aren't designed this way? There has to be an optimal and varying amount of forward shaft lean at impact depending on the club to ensure the "true loft" of the club is preserved at separation. At least that's what my coconut thinks....

Edit: Hmmm, maybe not. Just got a gap wedge and 3 iron out and compared and I'll be damned if they don't look like they have the same amount of shaft lean at some sort of adjusted address.

What you say Brian?
 
Furthermore, why the hell is it easier to hit a wedge than a 3 iron? I know, I know seems like a stupid question. Could it be club length? Assuming you had a wedge and 3 iron w/ the same length and a good lie why is it easier to hit a wedge in the center of the face than a 3 iron? There should be no difference!

Maybe that's why I thought varying shaft lean had sumpin' to do with it.
 
Does this make sense:

I use a Snead like pattern, but not his aim right set up. I set up square to the target.

With the driver: I let my ball fall about 20 yards left of my target line.

With short irons: I lean a little more left, swing a little more upright, and hit a straight shot.

I've never been good at opening or closing my stance.

My short iron pattern is modeled after this video clip:

 
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Brian Manzella

Administrator
Well...

Can you tell me why clubs aren't designed this way? There has to be an optimal and varying amount of forward shaft lean at impact depending on the club to ensure the "true loft" of the club is preserved at separation.

That amount is very little for a straight shot.


Another really bad idea KILLED DEAD by the D-Plane.
 

Brian Manzella

Administrator
Why do great ball strikers such as Tiger and Hogan have the 7-iron more than 5 deg foward leaning at impact?

The same reason I aim 40 yards left on a standard tee shot.

Because IT works better for me.

Absolutely nothing wrong with forward lean, Boo Weekley has maybe 10° of some shots.

You just have to figure out how much downward you impact is, and aim or swing further left, or play a hook, etc.

The point is this:

You can't set-up square, move the ball up and back in your stance, trace a straight plane line, and hit straight shots.

Which, I believe is pretty important, isn't "in" The Golfing Machine, and makes lots of non-TGMers WRONG TOO.

99.9% of every golf book every written is wrong because of it!
 
Brian, earlier you were calculating what the ball would do according to some trackman results, I believe. Can you post the formula you were using? I assume it was some complicated formula using:face angle, loft and planeline.
 

Guitar Hero

New member
The same reason I aim 40 yards left on a standard tee shot.

Because IT works better for me.

Absolutely nothing wrong with forward lean, Boo Weekley has maybe 10° of some shots.

You just have to figure out how much downward you impact is, and aim or swing further left, or play a hook, etc.

The point is this:

You can't set-up square, move the ball up and back in your stance, trace a straight plane line, and hit straight shots.

Which, I believe is pretty important, isn't "in" The Golfing Machine, and makes lots of non-TGMers WRONG TOO.

99.9% of every golf book every written is wrong because of it!

I agree the D-Plane is very important for the tour pro but for 99.9% of golfers I see who do not have forward shaft lean but have backwards shaft lean from an early release and an open club face with a swing plane coming outside in at impact, I believe looking at the D-Plane for their swing is like teaching a Van Halen solo to most amateur guitar players. It is not required to play good. It is required for the pro that is making a living with their skill as the better they are with their shill the more money they will make.

There are far more important factors to focus on for the amateur golfer than the D-Plane and the time trying to learn what it is and how to use it for 99.9% of the golfers is wasted time and will not provide improvement in their swings that they will get with solid fundamentals.
 

Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
I disagree...

The D-Plane concept isn't applicable to only good players that have alot of shaft lean. You can be a 30 hndcp and still tilt your D-Plane left or right and improve by learning how to aim it or fix it based on said information.
 
The same reason I aim 40 yards left on a standard tee shot.

Because IT works better for me.

Absolutely nothing wrong with forward lean, Boo Weekley has maybe 10° of some shots.

You just have to figure out how much downward you impact is, and aim or swing further left, or play a hook, etc.

The point is this:

You can't set-up square, move the ball up and back in your stance, trace a straight plane line, and hit straight shots.

Which, I believe is pretty important, isn't "in" The Golfing Machine, and makes lots of non-TGMers WRONG TOO.

99.9% of every golf book every written is wrong because of it!

Brian...this is what you're trying to say...'having more than a little forward lean is great but I find it harder to teach this to the average golfer and I want results fast and even though you might not get hoganesque quality shots with less forward lean it's still far better than what the golfer is doing now'
 
This is a really interesting thread and applies perfectly to my most recent revelations.

As for shaft lean, I have found that I can now play with varying degrees of it. For instance, I normally hit my LW (60) about 55-60 yards accurately. Today, I intentionally delofted the hell out of it with a drastic forward lean. I hit effortless, amazing, accurate shots from 95 yards away into an elevated green. I've never done that. It made me happy.

Hogan claimed that the pros play their clubs in a delofted manner. The only way I know to accomplish this is with forward lean.

The grip cannot be understated for correct play of the shot. Hogan said that the grip was one of the things that most people almost do correctly. He said that is not good enough, thus his excruciating details in his book. I must say that I have to agree.

And it is also my opinion that if you grip the club like Hogan instructs, you have no choice but to forward lean the shaft. Even more heretical, I feel that's exactly what I want because it sets the club for a downward blow and allows for a true inside-out attack plane. 'Tis true that I may take a small hit on accuracy, but I 'll gladly trade that for the delofted ball flight, extreme distance and exceptional stopping power I have with a forward leaning shaft.

I have noticed that it is annoyingly rare to grip a club the exact same way for each and every shot. Even when pounding balls on the range, the grip changes from one shot to the next. The changes may be slight and they may be for different reasons each time, but I think most of it is mental.

My experience is that my mind instructs my hands how to grip the club. That is to say, my body subconsciously reacts to the input of the shot as soon as I take the club.

Every so often I will adjust to a weaker grip (if anything I'm a little strong at first). But more than anything I want my hands to be comfortable and my wrist to be relaxed, especially my right one. The left wrist need be straight so I can figure my attack into the ball as well as the ball flight path. I use the waggle to gauge all of this.

After this, I position my feet a little better, re-check my ball flight path based on the clubface and then adjust the ball back or forward as necessary (usually a minute adjustment).

Hogan pounded the importance of the waggle in his book. I never derived the benefits he claimed until I started attacking from the inside out with a slight forward lean to the shaft. The waggle is now how I aim and really all that I care about in terms of alignment. Here's why.

Basically, it's all about the clubface. While I waggle, I slowly draw the clubhead path into and through the ball, stopping directly behind the ball a few times to precisely gauge the clubface at impact.

Depending on my grip, this gives me a very good and reliable approximation of the flight trajectory. Once again, I try not to fight the angle of the clubface because my whole tempo and strategy has now developed around it. If it feels I am going to draw/hook a little more than ususal I aim a little further right (within reason).

There is so much to know, so much to learn. When I earn a million dollars per year playing golf I guess I will be worth listening to.

I will say that I have done diligent investigation and experimentation and I must say that the Hogan book is a must as is this forum for continued improvement of you golf game.

Thanks for all the great topics and discussions.
 

Brian Manzella

Administrator
Brian...this is what you're trying to say...'having more than a little forward lean is great but I find it harder to teach this to the average golfer and I want results fast and even though you might not get hoganesque quality shots with less forward lean it's still far better than what the golfer is doing now'

I am ABSOLUTELY NOT SAYING THAT!!!!! :rolleyes:
 
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