Some attack angle questions...

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mgranato

mgranato

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I think by now we're all aware of the cons of too negative an AA. However, I don't recall much talk about the other side of the scale. Are there cons with AA numbers in the shallow end of the pool, say 2 degrees or less?

I think by now we're all aware of the '09 PGA Tour averages for AA. Those seem like "safe" averages to model and compare our own AA numbers to, but how ideal are those numbers? Obviously, some really good players are shallower than those average, and some are steeper. The Tour average for the driver is slowly working its way toward the positive, and it's known that the "optimal" AA for that club is not the '09 Tour averages. So... is there an optimal AA for the shots played off the ground? Is it possibly shallower than the '09 averages? Have any of the scientist done any modeling on the subject?

I think by now we're all aware my limitations so any help in this area is greatly appreciated. :)
 
Steve Greffen

Steve Greffen

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Not a definitive answer to this great question(s), but I wonder if the angle of attack average is such that it is steep enough on the irons to be a good average for most to attain a ball then turf contact. Then the fact that you have a nice progression of shallower AOA as the irons get longer in the Pga averages, if that is also really good for most to try to attain.
 
B

Brian Manzella

Administrator
It is really simple math....I've done some case studies and that's where I came up with my...

Manzella Rule of Thumb for Attack Angles

5° down with a PW
4° down with a 7iron
3° down with a hybrid/5-wood
2° up with a Driver

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Not ideal for every swing speed, but pretty darn good for most.



Here are the parameters you are dealing with:

Ideal Launch Angle and spin for a given dynamic loft at a given ball speed through a set of clubs.


Now, you have to realize that TOUR GREENS need a certain landing angle, and a certain spin to hold, and the are the typical center of gravities and height of clubface and golf ball and how far "up" the ball is sitting.


:)
 
Todd Dugan

Todd Dugan

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The biggest reason that we need to "hit down" on the ball has nothing to do with "efficiency" or "ideal" dynamic or spinlofts......rather......if we are to impact the ball on the center of the clubface, the bottom, or sole of the club must be below the bottom of the ball at impact.....and the more loft on the clubface, the more this is true. By hitting down, we reduce the club-to-turf contact befor impact, which slows the clubhead speed........"ball first, then turf"??? Hardly.
 
C

cwdlaw223

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Todd -

Impact the ball where with the center hit from the club? Slightly above the equator? In line with the equator? Is there only one way to hit a solid shot in 3D?
 
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natep

natep

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Todd Dugan said:
The biggest reason that we need to "hit down" on the ball has nothing to do with "efficiency" or "ideal" dynamic or spinlofts......rather......if we are to impact the ball on the center of the clubface, the bottom, or sole of the club must be below the bottom of the ball at impact.....and the more loft on the clubface, the more this is true. By hitting down, we reduce the club-to-turf contact befor impact, which slows the clubhead speed........"ball first, then turf"??? Hardly.
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Are you saying the golfer needs to dig the leading edge into the ground before the club makes contact with the ball, in order to hit the sweetspot?
 
mjstrong

mjstrong

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What would be interesting, statistically, would be the standard deviation of the AoA through the bag, not just the averages...
 
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wulsy

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It would seem, that these numbers are good if you play on tour in USA. Playing elsewhere at non-tour standard and different equipment might change it all.
 
mgranato

mgranato

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Brian Manzella said:
It is really simple math....I've done some case studies and that's where I came up with my...

Manzella Rule of Thumb for Attack Angles

5° down with a PW
4° down with a 7iron
3° down with a hybrid/5-wood
2° up with a Driver

​
Not ideal for every swing speed, but pretty darn good for most.



Here are the parameters you are dealing with:

Ideal Launch Angle and spin for a given dynamic loft at a given ball speed through a set of clubs.


Now, you have to realize that TOUR GREENS need a certain landing angle, and a certain spin to hold, and the are the typical center of gravities and height of clubface and golf ball and how far "up" the ball is sitting.


:)
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Never thought about the swing speed aspect of it. When the speed goes down, does the AA need to be on the shallower side? The opposite when the speed goes up?
 
Todd Dugan

Todd Dugan

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natep said:
Are you saying the golfer needs to dig the leading edge into the ground before the club makes contact with the ball, in order to hit the sweetspot?
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With a lofted clubface, like a sand wedge, the answer is clearly YES. Test it out for yourself. Put a ball on a hard surface, like a table. Set the clubhead behind the ball. Now go ahead and lean the shaft forward 5-10* to create a typical Tour Pro Dynamic Loft. Now go ahead and attack the ball at any vertical angle you like. And show me how you can make the ball touch/impact anywhere but the very bottom of the clubface, well below the center/sweet spot. You can't. To impact the center of the clubface, you'd need to have the bottom of the club below the bottom of the ball, which means that if you COULD pass the club through the table, to impact on the center of the clubface, the sole of the club would have made contact with the table BEFORE impact. About 2" before the ball for a typically "ideal" Attack Angle and swing radius. And this, my friends is WHY we should hit down in the first place. To minimize the NECESSARY club-turf interaction BEFORE impact.
 
O

OLIVER1

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Todd Dugan said:
With a lofted clubface, like a sand wedge, the answer is clearly YES. Test it out for yourself. Put a ball on a hard surface, like a table. Set the clubhead behind the ball. Now go ahead and lean the shaft forward 5-10* to create a typical Tour Pro Dynamic Loft. Now go ahead and attack the ball at any vertical angle you like. And show me how you can make the ball touch/impact anywhere but the very bottom of the clubface, well below the center/sweet spot. You can't. To impact the center of the clubface, you'd need to have the bottom of the club below the bottom of the ball, which means that if you COULD pass the club through the table, to impact on the center of the clubface, the sole of the club would have made contact with the table BEFORE impact. About 2" before the ball for a typically "ideal" Attack Angle and swing radius. And this, my friends is WHY we should hit down in the first place. To minimize the NECESSARY club-turf interaction BEFORE impact.
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Todd,
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but what about when you hit it out of the sweet spot on a lie-board? I always thought - and, once again, you can correct me if I'm wrong, or if I misread your post - that a certain amount of backspin made the ball crawl up the clubface from leading edge to centre on solid hits, rather than instantaneously shooting out from the centre of the club.
 
Todd Dugan

Todd Dugan

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OLIVER1 said:
Todd,
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but what about when you hit it out of the sweet spot on a lie-board? I always thought - and, once again, you can correct me if I'm wrong, or if I misread your post - that a certain amount of backspin made the ball crawl up the clubface from leading edge to centre on solid hits, rather than instantaneously shooting out from the centre of the club.
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With good friction during collision, the ball doesn't slide up the clubface hardly at all. Even when the ball does "slip" on the face, its a pretty tiny amount, relatively. The ball certainly doesn't impact on the bottom of the clubface, slide up, then seperate from the middle. I use a chalk spray on the clubface, "On Mark", and even this allows you to see that the ball is not sliding up the clubface. Its just compressing against the face and then springing free. You can clearly see perfectly-formed chalk imprints of dimples on the clubface for "clean" center hits. That wouldn't happen if the ball was slipping and sliding on the clubface.
 
Todd Dugan

Todd Dugan

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cwdlaw223 said:
Todd -

Why is it harder to get down with lower lofted irons?
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I'm not sure that I understand the question, but realize that as Dynamic Loft decreases, the amount that the bottom of the club must be below the bottom of the ball, to allow center contact, is reduced, reducing the need for a more descending Attack Angle.
 
O

OLIVER1

New
Todd Dugan said:
With good friction during collision, the ball doesn't slide up the clubface hardly at all. Even when the ball does "slip" on the face, its a pretty tiny amount, relatively. The ball certainly doesn't impact on the bottom of the clubface, slide up, then seperate from the middle. I use a chalk spray on the clubface, "On Mark", and even this allows you to see that the ball is not sliding up the clubface. Its just compressing against the face and then springing free. You can clearly see perfectly-formed chalk imprints of dimples on the clubface for "clean" center hits. That wouldn't happen if the ball was slipping and sliding on the clubface.
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Like I said Todd, I'm perfectly prepared to admit I could be wrong, and this discourse is more of a learning odyssey for me.
Could the mark on the clubface be where the ball is maximally compressed after wiggling its way north of the leading edge? And I don't mean a shot that would be a grounder but then moves up the clubface like crazy; rather, I'm talking millimetres worth, but enough so that we're not going turf-ball
Moreover, if the shaft is leaning forward and the face is delofted a touch wouldn't that also place the clubface centre closer to the ball and negate the need to enter turf first (a concept, which, I have to admit, leaves me a little bewildered)
Thanks once again. Very interesting.
 
C

cwdlaw223

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Todd Dugan said:
I'm not sure that I understand the question, but realize that as Dynamic Loft decreases, the amount that the bottom of the club must be below the bottom of the ball, to allow center contact, is reduced, reducing the need for a more descending Attack Angle.
Click to expand...

Todd -

You answer helped. Thanks.
 
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