Spine angle constant - fact or myth?

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Dariusz J.

New member
What you are referring to is axis tilt, or the "spine angle" seen if you look at someone swinging from face on. What these guys are talking about would more accurately be described as waist bend, or the "spine angle" seen from a down the line view of one swinging.

Yes, waist bent that is not the same as axis tilt, for God's sake. Axis tilt is sideway bent from FO view (to the player's right) and spine angle is the angle a spine of a player has in relation to the vertical line that is perpendicular to the ground.
Either my English sucks completely, or we are talking about 2 different images.

Cheers
 

Dariusz J.

New member
http://asafgolf.free.fr/images/golf/swings/snead_profil.jpg

Compare frames 1 and 8. Same amount of forward bend. Trevino does it, but its because he has the right shoulder going way down and chasing after the ball, surely not something a "one planer" wants to do. Are you sure Hogan did this? I know its in masterclass, but in that its more of a compensation move for people that start out not bent over enough, not an ideal move.

TF, the increasement of the spine angle happens through all the downswing and it's much more evident close to impact in many cases. Compare frames 1 and 10 & 11 - you'll notice a few grades bigger spine angle in Snead's swing. Some players start to increase at the beginning of downswing, some much later...

Cheers
 

jimmyt

New
Seems to me that Dari & Doubled are argueing symantics. Fact is that Biz Hub did show Jeff Q standing up or reducing his spine angle at impact. Which by 1P purist Dari is a big no no!!!!
 

Dariusz J.

New member
Yes, Jimmy, it's a big no-no, I guess not only for a purist of certain swing theory. And the term "reducing" is correct (the same as "decreasing") ;)

In one of my earlier posts I tried to know the opinion of experts why the greatest players increased their angle during downswing. I still would like to know what is the biomechanical reason for doing it.

Cheers
 
Yes, Jimmy, it's a big no-no, I guess not only for a purist of certain swing theory. And the term "reducing" is correct (the same as "decreasing") ;)

In one of my earlier posts I tried to know the opinion of experts why the greatest players increased their angle during downswing. I still would like to know what is the biomechanical reason for doing it.

Cheers


More vertical forces into the ground?

Club goes down without throwing accumulators?

Better able to use the ground in generation of rotational speed?

Not sure though?
 
Doubled, so are you of the opinion that e.g. Hogan, Snead, Trevino, Nicklaus etc. did not increase their spine angle during downswing ??? Show me a true player who does not do it, please.

Cheers

I'm really not biased one way or another with the mechanics...

But didn't someone just post video of Langer???

He is a "true player", yes...?

Dariusz said:
Spine angle is spine angle. Increasing it does not mean standing up.

Dariusz said:
And the term "reducing" is correct. (the same as "decreasing")

I've never read that one in the Universal Golf Terms Dictionary. :rolleyes:;)

However one can use whatever they like in their own world of course. This is only a silly semantic debate.

When you stand up the angle (numerically speaking) does increase though.
 
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Dariusz J.

New member
More vertical forces into the ground?

Club goes down without throwing accumulators?

Better able to use the ground in generation of rotational speed?

Not sure though?


Nice guesses, Mrodock. Worth discussing, at least. I'd add also a forward shaft lean with a flat/bowed lead wrist to the list.

Cheers
 

Dariusz J.

New member
I'm really not biased one way or another with the mechanics...

But didn't someone just post video of Langer???

He is a "true player", yes...?

[...]

However one can use whatever they like in their own world of course. This is only a silly semantic debate.

When you stand up the angle (numerically speaking) does increase though.


First, when you stand up the angle does decrease. Spine angle is not measured in relation to the ground in golf, but to the vertical line perpendicular to the ground, i.e. a person toally erect has a spine angle = 0 degrees; when he bends down his spine angle increases.
BTW, it's not a silly semantic debate - when talking about golf we should have a clear picture what we are talking about and thus, a certain golf nomenclature must be unified.

Lastly, here is a DTL vid of Langer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uus6FjtB7U

Listen carefully what it is being said there, please, and why he decreases his spine angle.

Cheers
 

Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
Dariuz, let's start over. You are saying that all true great players increase (add more waist bend) spine angle by impact, correct?

All I'm saying is they all don't by any stretch of the imagination. For every great player you state that increases their tilt, I will give you a major champion who stands up thru impact.
 
Dariuz, let's start over. You are saying that all true great players increase (add more waist bend) spine angle by impact, correct?

All I'm saying is they all don't by any stretch of the imagination. For every great player you state that increases their tilt, I will give you a major champion who stands up thru impact.

Agree. In fact, I think more players stand up through impact than vice versa.

For example Tiger. He squats during transition, but at impact, his spine angle (from down-the-line) is more upright than at address.
 
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This thread is driving me insane. Measure it from the ground, the sky, my backyard whatever I don't care..... but folks who stand up at impact are increasing their spine angle, not decreasing it.

I'm not great w/ all the drawing programs but this is close enough:

bencomparisontp5.png
 

Dariusz J.

New member
Doubled, do you use e.g. a V1 programme where you can draw lines when watching swings in slow motion ? If not, give me a name of the player who decreases his spine angle at impact, his swing DTL to download and I'll measure it objectively.
In my collection I have only swings of players whose swings I am interested in - Hogan, Trevino, Snead, Johnson, Baddeley, etc. All of them increases their spine angle somewhere in the downswing. Please provide me a vid of a player in his prime who reduces his spine angle during downswing.


Mongoose, I am speechless. First, you say that you don't care from what point the angle is being measured, and then you obstinately claim that it should be measured from the line parallel to the ground...which would mean that e.g. a player bends at adress 65 degrees (instead 25 degrees) or when a player is erect his spine angle amounts to 90 degrees (instead 0 degrees) - do you see the absurdity of it now ?
I tell you once again, the measurement of the spine angle in golf is done from a vertical line perpendicular to the ground that is logical and being used by all golf teachers I encountered.
Lastly, the measurement you have shown us of Crane's spine angle is done incorrectly. He also increases his spine angle which can be seen even with a bare eye if the line on the second pic is drawn as it should be. It would be even more clearly seen when you measure it at impact.

Cheers
 

Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
That's not what you said. You said show me a "true" player who decreases (stands up) their spine angle through impact. Not just the swings that you are interested in. That's like saying only true players have the shaft up the left arm past impact because thats my preference, or because Hogan did it.

Stands up: Nicklaus, Watson, Singh, Weiskopf, Stewart, Player, Ogilvy, Norman, Langer, Lehman. They all "hump" the ball and lose spine angle...and all have won majors.

Are these not true players? Or do you discredit them because you aren't interested in their swings? That's fine if you have a model. But don't act like spine angle is any kind of imperative, because it is faaaaar from it.
 
Let it go already!

Mongoose, I am speechless. ...which would mean that e.g. a player bends at adress 65 degrees (instead 25 degrees) or when a player is erect his spine angle amounts to 90 degrees (instead 0 degrees) -
I tell you once again, the measurement of the spine angle in golf is done from a vertical line perpendicular to the ground that is logical and being used by all golf teachers I encountered.
Lastly, the measurement you have shown us of Crane's spine angle is done incorrectly. He also increases his spine angle which can be seen even with a bare eye if the line on the second pic is drawn as it should be. It would be even more clearly seen when you measure it at impact.

Cheers

We're arguing over the same thing. I drew some additional lines and the angles "A" at address and "B" at impact are the angles you refer to being decreased correct? Again, semantics :rolleyes:

bencomparisonby4.png


First, you say that you don't care from what point the angle is being measured, and then you obstinately claim that it should be measured from the line parallel to the ground

Because that's how it's typically measured here in America. Doesn't make it right, doesn't make it wrong. Just another way to get the same answer.

do you see the absurdity of it now ?

The only thing looking absurd is you and your continuous attack on posters who think about things differently than you or are have different ideas. We're all here for a reason and you've obviously got some information to share but you ain't makin' a lot of friends.:(
 

Dariusz J.

New member
No, Mongoose, I can make a lot of friends on various fora. I do not attack anybody personally although I may be stubborn enough in finding the objective truth.
I am also in a position to admit I was wrong and can apologize for it if I am proven to be wrong always; I am also able to change my point of view 180* if I am being convinced by objective arguments.
However, what distracts me are people who have no civil courage to admit that they were wrong and, instead, usually change subjects for personal attack when their arguments appeared to be very weak. Guess whom I mean, among others, now ?

------------

Doubled, you misunderstood me. I said that I have only vids of players whom I like to have. I asked you to send me a vid of a player (ANY PLAYER YOU LIKE) who, according to you, decreases his spine angle. That's all.
Where did I write that you are to choose from the names I mentioned ? Please indicate WHERE.

And please do not suggest me that I changed something or I am backing up from what I said, because it is simply not true and unfair. It is you who should change your attitude because your hatred makes you half-blind when reading my posts.

Regards to both of you, rather cold ones.
 
Hi guys,
please use "more or less bent over during impact " etc. so nobody will be confused how to measure angles.
 

Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
No, Mongoose, I can make a lot of friends on various fora. I do not attack anybody personally although I may be stubborn enough in finding the objective truth.
I am also in a position to admit I was wrong and can apologize for it if I am proven to be wrong always; I am also able to change my point of view 180* if I am being convinced by objective arguments.
However, what distracts me are people who have no civil courage to admit that they were wrong and, instead, usually change subjects for personal attack when their arguments appeared to be very weak. Guess whom I mean, among others, now ?

------------

Doubled, you misunderstood me. I said that I have only vids of players whom I like to have. I asked you to send me a vid of a player (ANY PLAYER YOU LIKE) who, according to you, decreases his spine angle. That's all.
Where did I write that you are to choose from the names I mentioned ? Please indicate WHERE.

And please do not suggest me that I changed something or I am backing up from what I said, because it is simply not true and unfair. It is you who should change your attitude because your hatred makes you half-blind when reading my posts.

Regards to both of you, rather cold ones.

Hatred? Take it easy. You're the one who started on me with your "show me a true player" b.s. All i did was name a number of major champions who decrease (or is it increase??) their friggin spine angles. Go right ahead and study only guys who increase(or decrease??) theirs. If you think thats a swing absolute, you're wrong. Cheers.
 
This thread is driving me insane. Measure it from the ground, the sky, my backyard whatever I don't care..... but folks who stand up at impact are increasing their spine angle, not decreasing it.

I'm not great w/ all the drawing programs but this is close enough:

bencomparisontp5.png

Thank you mongoose!!! Not sure about your drawings to be honest but this IS how I have been measuring it anyhow.

I know I don't overly care about how "all other teachers do it" at this point.

But none of this is anywhere near what should be the main point anyhow. And personally I don't care to discuss the terms much further. Only the players and the mechanics.
 
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That's not what you said. You said show me a "true" player who decreases (stands up) their spine angle through impact. Not just the swings that you are interested in. That's like saying only true players have the shaft up the left arm past impact because thats my preference, or because Hogan did it.

Stands up: Nicklaus, Watson, Singh, Weiskopf, Stewart, Player, Ogilvy, Norman, Langer, Lehman. They all "hump" the ball and lose spine angle...and all have won majors.

Are these not true players? Or do you discredit them because you aren't interested in their swings? That's fine if you have a model. But don't act like spine angle is any kind of imperative, because it is faaaaar from it.

I haven't checked all these players.....but assuming you're right...

Can we close the thread now?

:D
 
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