Swing Fads

[otto6457]

OK....

This may be the musings of a lunatic, but I can't get past the feeling that Stack and Tilt is just another fad concocted to generate notoriety for it's "creators".

I have been around long enough to remember when everyone hung on the utterances of Jim Flick because he had Jack. Jimmy Ballard stormed in and told us all that he was the "man". Then Leadbetter knew the secret. Along came Haney and "he" knows the truth. Hardy recently convinces everyone that there are only two swings. And now we have Plummer and Bennet being held up as our saviors, and Stack and Tilt being hyped on every forum and in every magazine in the world. After reading the glowing reviews from these people you would swear that the 2007 Q-School will be filled with Stack and Tilters hitting every fairway and green.

Is it just me, or does all this nonsense just smell of marketing falderol? Why do I get the feeling that by summer of 2008, Stack and Tilt will be replaced by yet another "can't fail" swing concept and the web will be buzzing with how great the new swing is?

What the heck is wrong with golfers? Are we really so simple minded that we believe that the golf swing has been reinvented and that all the swings that have gone before are now somehow unworthy?

OK......rant over.

 

[Bigwill]

I think that golfers are desperate to get better, and they're willing to try anything and everything, if there's a chance that it will help them hit it longer and straighter. People trying to make money are able to capitalize on that, whether they are crooked or not.

 

[cmartingolf]

That expression is certainly a fad. I have spent some time with a couple of P&B's guys. One of them didn't event know what "Stack and Tilt" is.... You have to give these guys a bit more credit than a fad or the top players in the WORLD wouldn't be listening. I can see Charly Chopper buying the lastest gizmo, but this pattern they teach to the Tour Players in need is no fad. It's simply a pattern that works for some and not for all. Anything that lets a guy stand on the tee and have a reasonable idea of where the ball is going to land is sheer brilliance. Isn't that all a good teacher is trying to provide??

I have never met Brian, we've traded a few emails, but I see that he's a teacher that adapts to the students needs and provides a dynamic impact condition for all.... He's helped me a ton in my understanding and if he ever comes to Reno, the vino and steaks are on me.

I for one, give P&B a lot of credit for their achievments. I'd like a bunch of the top 200 players in the world calling me for my advice and guidance.

 

[birdie_man]

All I know from what I've been exposed to (the GD article + random tidbits) is that the pics in the article look exaggerated from any notion or orthodox............and they also look different than Baddeley when he's playing an event. (more concerned with the former....but the latter wreaks of 'antidote')

 

[otto6457]

That expression is certainly a fad. I have spent some time with a couple of P&B's guys. One of them didn't event know what "Stack and Tilt" is.... You have to give these guys a bit more credit than a fad or the top players in the WORLD wouldn't be listening. I can see Charly Chopper buying the lastest gizmo, but this pattern they teach to the Tour Players in need is no fad. It's simply a pattern that works for some and not for all. Anything that lets a guy stand on the tee and have a reasonable idea of where the ball is going to land is sheer brilliance. Isn't that all a good teacher is trying to provide??

I have never met Brian, we've traded a few emails, but I see that he's a teacher that adapts to the students needs and provides a dynamic impact condition for all.... He's helped me a ton in my understanding and if he ever comes to Reno, the vino and steaks are on me.

I for one, give P&B a lot of credit for their achievments. I'd like a bunch of the top 200 players in the world calling me for my advice and guidance.

But this reinforces my point. It's not just Stack and Tilt. A lot of pros jumped on the Ballard train when he was hot. A lot of players ran to Leadbetter. A lot of "pros" are inclined to rush to a new guru just like everyone else. The best are not immune to marketing.

The fact remains that P&B have taken one part of a golf swing and are making it seem like they have stumbled on the holy grail. None of the current crop of
"Stack and Tilters" are setting the world on fire with their ball striking. It remains a media created phenomena.

My personal opinion is that "Stack and Tilt" will fade away like all the others and it will be replaced by next year's new star and method. It also will take some snappy name or anagram and slap it on some narrow idea of a golf swing method. The masses of struggling golfers will rush out to the range with their newest copy of Golf Digest under their arm, hit a few acceptable shots and proclaim that "Slack and Spit" or "Smack and Rip" is the greatest swing they have ever had. The forums will buzz and handicaps will remain unchanged.

mark my words

 

[tbyeaton0627]

All I know from what I've been exposed to (the GD article + random tidbits) is that the pics in the article look exaggerated from any notion or orthodox............and they also look different than Baddeley when he's playing an event. (more concerned with the former....but the latter wreaks of 'antidote')

cz thats all the tilt is an exxxageration, take a player from one end of the spectrum and move them to the opposite end will give them some middle ground

 

[birdie_man]

Fair enough if that's the intent. (if)

 

[Jared Willerson]

Otto, that article in GD was not Bennett and Plummers fault. I think if they had their way, the article would have been done a lot differently.

What they do works for a lot of professional golfers, but if they were working with a dreadful slicer, I'll bet they could come up with something to help that golfer as well.

Brian said in another thread, that to get as good as you can, you need to be able to play and practice a lot, have great equipment and have a great teacher. We have access to the best info on the golf swing right here, so for me personally, I really don't worry about fads or whether I'm "doing it wrong" anymore.

 

[otto6457]

Otto, that article in GD was not Bennett and Plummers fault. I think if they had their way, the article would have been done a lot differently.

What they do works for a lot of professional golfers, but if they were working with a dreadful slicer, I'll bet they could come up with something to help that golfer as well.

Brian said in another thread, that to get as good as you can, you need to be able to play and practice a lot, have great equipment and have a great teacher. We have access to the best info on the golf swing right here, so for me personally, I really don't worry about fads or whether I'm "doing it wrong" anymore.

Coach, I agree wholeheartedly. I don't think P&B are being disingenuous or are entirely wrong in what they teach to the pros they are working with. Although I do think they are relishing all the publicity the "Stack and Tilt" is generating. I agree that if they took a 20 handicapper with a big slice, they would not be giving him the stack and tilt pattern. (at least I hope not) I do wish P&B would come out and explain that the Stack and Tilt is NOT a pattern for most golfers. I don't think that would prevent a lot of slicers from trying to use the pattern, but at least they would have a clear reason why they shouldn't.

My rant is more about how the "swing of the month" is so widely ballyhooed by the media and on the multitude of web forums that support the game. Reading the prattle that comes with these "new" swings paints the picture that whatever swing went before, whether it won multiple majors, won consistently on tour, or was proved reliable for years and years, is now less than ideal. The glowing reviews of the "newest" method is never quantified with lower handicaps or better ball striking statistics. The whole thing is a load of wishful thinking and hope.

I just see the whole process as a media driven event designed to bring celebrity to the newest swing guru, and to sell a lot of books, magazines, and videos. With the end result being the replacement of the "new" swing with the next "new" swing. All the while, handicaps remain firmly immovable and a lot of money and energy is expended going absolutely nowhere.

 

[Wolfman]

Check out this month's GD

Many more new pages on S&T. I only read it once, but they specifically say that they are not exaggerating these moves. They also make it sound like they think everyone should swing this way.

Also, in the magazine, there are some top 100 teachers critiqueing the article with B&P giving a rebuttal.

We also haven't heard about the pros they have worked with who got worse, YET. AND, it seems like Baddeley is the only one making any significant results with S&T.

 

[birdie_man]

Apparently it didn't work for Jason Gore.

 

[jew]

Many more new pages on S&T. I only read it once, but they specifically say that they are not exaggerating these moves. They also make it sound like they think everyone should swing this way.

Also, in the magazine, there are some top 100 teachers critiqueing the article with B&P giving a rebuttal.

We also haven't heard about the pros they have worked with who got worse, YET. AND, it seems like Baddeley is the only one making any significant results with S&T.

So far they have many first time winners that are 'stack and tilting"---Willy Mac, Badds, Dean Wilson, Eric Axley----so i guess they have gotten better??? Also, 2 weeks ago Tom SCherrer won his first event in years on the Nationwide......so by the way I am seeing things is either all of this is a fluke or it is the truth!!

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

It's "a way" not "the way."

Everyone is different.

 

[davel]

myabe right for me

I do agree that the Stack and Tilt and other things could be fads but when I saw the article it changed my whole perspective on my ability to play better golf. From a physical point being a rear leg aboveknee amputee the chance of me getting my weight back on my right leg without creating a wobble and losing balance is very slim. So for me the approach while more drastic for me fits my physical capabilities. I wish I could understand it better since the Golf Digest pictures are way offf and Badds is too flexible to imitate I need another model to figure it out. It does appear to be similar to the so called swing plane model of Hardeys single plane swing. I am sorry I am referencing other teachers but it simplifies the discussion. I know I am not going to swing using the Manzella ideal pattern. If I am lucky I would hope to get a personal lesson that would be longer than the brief one I had at the seminar. Whatever it is I am sure Brian would have me adjusting but sticking to the main 3 imperatives. Right now I have to improve my swing plane which Brian noted and I'll have to keep tracing the plane line.

So Jim you are right everyone is different.

Dave


QUOTE=Jim Kobylinski;101804]It's "a way" not "the way."

Everyone is different.[/QUOTE]

 

[holeout]

So far they have many first time winners that are 'stack and tilting"---Willy Mac, Badds, Dean Wilson, Eric Axley----so i guess they have gotten better??? Also, 2 weeks ago Tom SCherrer won his first event in years on the Nationwide......so by the way I am seeing things is either all of this is a fluke or it is the truth!!

So you see things in black and white? Say it ain't so.

There simply are shades of gray when it comes to things like this.

Sure, it has worked for some pros. But there are other pros who haven't had the kind of success with it that these guys have (Faxon, Gore, Elkington all come to mind).

It's not (quite) a fluke with success of Baddeley and the others. But it certainly ain't the truth. Golf just isn't that simple .

 

[tbyeaton0627]

So you see things in black and white? Say it ain't so.

There simply are shades of gray when it comes to things like this.

Sure, it has worked for some pros. But there are other pros who haven't had the kind of success with it that these guys have (Faxon, Gore, Elkington all come to mind).

It's not (quite) a fluke with success of Baddeley and the others. But it certainly ain't the truth. Golf just isn't that simple .

The golf swing isnt the only thing that defines success...how quickly have we forgotten ALLLLL the other facets of the game...the best ball strikers in the world aren't the best players in the world necessarily (and tiger isnt the best ball striker)...

 

[jew]

So you see things in black and white? Say it ain't so.

There simply are shades of gray when it comes to things like this.

Sure, it has worked for some pros. But there are other pros who haven't had the kind of success with it that these guys have (Faxon, Gore, Elkington all come to mind).

It's not (quite) a fluke with success of Baddeley and the others. But it certainly ain't the truth. Golf just isn't that simple .

Elkington will still swear by it....i promise you that----as for Faxon and Gore, all i know is that jason played his best while trying this and has a lot of the characteristics still -----Faxon is a bode head

 

[birdie_man]

I do agree that the Stack and Tilt and other things could be fads but when I saw the article it changed my whole perspective on my ability to play better golf. From a physical point being a rear leg aboveknee amputee the chance of me getting my weight back on my right leg without creating a wobble and losing balance is very slim. So for me the approach while more drastic for me fits my physical capabilities. I wish I could understand it better since the Golf Digest pictures are way offf and Badds is too flexible to imitate I need another model to figure it out. It does appear to be similar to the so called swing plane model of Hardeys single plane swing. I am sorry I am referencing other teachers but it simplifies the discussion. I know I am not going to swing using the Manzella ideal pattern. If I am lucky I would hope to get a personal lesson that would be longer than the brief one I had at the seminar. Whatever it is I am sure Brian would have me adjusting but sticking to the main 3 imperatives. Right now I have to improve my swing plane which Brian noted and I'll have to keep tracing the plane line.

So Jim you are right everyone is different.

Dave

Wow that's actually very freaking cool.....and interesting.

A rear leg amputee + a swing like that. That makes sense. Must've really jumped out at you when you saw it eh?

BTW congrats.....hopefully you keep progressing well man.

Has Brian seen your swing? You should post a video this sounds really interesting.

BTW again....for the record, there isn't a "Manzella ideal swing" in the sense of him preferring or solely teaching one swing method. I try not to speak for him but shoot I'm in here enough to know so I figured I should step up and point that out.

 

[davel]

Yes I know that that Brian teaches to the golfer but on the website he does indicate the ype of grip he prefers, pivot etc. He does not say you have to use them unless they fix a real problem.

As for a video posting my swing is still a work in progress. I screwed it up entirely when I tried off plane moves to try to correct for my physical restrictions and I have to put that back together. I have balance issues to address in terms of do I use the rear leg at all or not since it can and does slip. Finally I was a natural swinger and I am stuck in between being a swinger with the swivel and everything and a hitter because of my restricted hip action. A Ai known as expert in hitting and does it well tested me and felt I was not a candidate for hitting.

In the mean time as I indicated I am going to work on the imperatives starting with the plane. When I fix that I will try to post my hit or swing or swit.

I did lose a lot of time in learning process thinking I had to make many major changes in swing when its the club and what it is doing that is what is important. The moment of truth impact.

Dave

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Elkington will still swear by it....i promise you that----as for Faxon and Gore, all i know is that jason played his best while trying this and has a lot of the characteristics still -----Faxon is a bode head

IMPOSSIBLE....listen, stack and tilt is great, it's a option that works great for people who lean too far right and swing too far right. BAsically you take a leaning hooker and make them exaggerate a lean left and wala, you get them to lean less and swing more left and like magic, you are god cuz they don't hook it anymore. Same thing will hapeen if ytou watch NHA.

You can't take Jason Gore who has an over the top hold on fade type shot and teach him this, HE'LL GET WORSE, which he admitted, and why he stopped.

Stack and tilt will work great FOR A CERTAIN TYPE of golfera nd Gore isn't one of theml.

end rant