Swing Plane(s)??

[Teris10]

Before the boards were changed, I recall someone asking Brian a question about swing plane and Brian saying that he'd post a video response. I think it disappeared when the construction occurred on the site. I was disappointed because I've been very impressed with Brian's videos.

I've read posts that describe multiple planes and I haven't come across much of that before. The things I try to do in my swing with respect to swing plane are to take the club away along the "plane" established by the club shaft at address and on the downswing, drop the club so that it lines up with the rear forearm on the downswingg. This is elementary compared to the multiple plane swings I've seen discussed here and I'd be interested to hear more about them. Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Here is a start:

 

[Mick Stup]

Single Shift

Brian, good stuff.

My normal swing plane is I think what's termed a 'Single Shift', in that it goes back on the elbow plane, moves up to the TSP and then comes down on that TSP.

I know that's an acceptable option, but to me it feels like it is a bit of an 'over-the-top' action. My 'miss' is a pull / pull-draw, which reinforces this thought. Would I be better trying to develop a double shift?

Thanks
Mick

 

[Michael Jacobs]

I would recommend the double shift, at release point --- Right forearm on plane and left arm hanging straight down , Just like the great pics that Brian put with Byron Nelson

 

[Mick Stup]

I would recommend the double shift, at release point --- Right forearm on plane and left arm hanging straight down , Just like the great pics that Brian put with Byron Nelson

Michael, thanks for the reply. To be honest I've been trying real hard to do that since getting your dvd (great dvd BTW!). I thought I'd managed to do it, but then saw myself on video and I was still coming down on TSP! My right forearm is on plane from release point, but it's the TSP not the original elbow plane. I'll keep working on it..

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Homer said that most people who use the elbow plane do it subconsciously. Unless you used to shift and are trying to "get back" don't try and ruin your game by "Shifting" just to "shift."

 

[Michael Jacobs]

your welcome for the reply, interesting that you say your right forearm is on plane but you are still coming down on the turned shoulder plane. I do see that a lot with many of my students, obviously without seeing your motion its hard to give you an idea for a better alignment but it sounds like the club is not inside the hands enough on the downstroke and in most cases the problem lies in the left wrist and left forearm. With standard wrist action 10-18 A , page 191 in the new 7 th edtion -- the left wrist is cocked , turned and on the backstroke. MAke sure that your left wrist and forearm are doing that, look at the picture and make sure on the downstroke you left palm is facing down more so that you can see more of the back of your left hand --- this will keep the clubhead inside the hands more and should allow you to store it on the elbow plane. The elbow plane sounds like a very important thing for you as it is for most golfers, its the closest plane angle to the original angle of the club shaft. I see and read a lot of golf machine talk about swings that single shift and use the turned shoulder plane, Homer kelley described that a lot in his later editions and teachings - but those are his expanded ideas... the first couple of editions suggested a double shift with the elbow angle as the basic plane angle. I really feel edition #2 was his best....... as time went on he felt people would be able to swing in their "sleep" as he put it in one of his classes. As time went on in his later editions and classes he talked more about a single shift as he experimented more. I recommend most to focus on his earlier editions , especially #2. The system described in the earlier edtions are seen plain and clear in the teaching of Ben Doyle, who is my teacher and Brian's . This is what has made Ben the best. Defintely strive for the elbow plane, make sure you turn your left plam "to the plane" on the backstroke, and see it more palm down on the downsing and you should see you a better downstroke. At the TGM summit in 2 weeks I am going to be speaking for a day and my discussion will be based on the earlier editions of the golfing machine. Good Luck!

MJ

 

[Mick Stup]

Thanks Michael, that's given me a different perspective, I'll give it some attention on the range today.

Cheers
Mick

 

[Mick Stup]

Progress..

Michael,

I re-watched parts of your dvd this morning, with your post in mind, before going to the range in preparation for the final competitive medal round of the year (probably not a great idea to be messing about with my swing at that time I agree but...).

Just hitting short irons nice and easy I got a really different feel coming down. It definitely felt like a better plane/path into the ball (have to get it onto video to verify). Quality of strike was impressive enough for me to decide to take it onto the course.

Long and the short of it is that I played a really good round of golf (could have been an exceptional round, but I sort of frittered shots away on the back nine, including finishing with a double ). Anyway still managed to score well enough to finish under par and get my handicap cut back to 6.

Anyway, the most pleasing part was that I hit a LOT of iron shots into greens that felt absolutely pure. Long irons and short ones. Time after time. Effortless. Couldn't believe it.

So thanks a lot, you've been a great help, and made a significant contribution to the quality of my weekend!

Now, if it stays the same for next weekend.....

Cheers
Mick

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

I would also like to thank Mr. Jacobs, GSED, for spending the time to write a nice elaborate post to help out Mick.

These are the things you can expect at brian's site.

 

[swingeasttowest]

Mike

Yeah that Mike is a dog of a guy....woops sorry Mike I was looking at your Avatar........Your LI pal..............R

I would also like to thank Mr. Jacobs, GSED, for spending the time to write a nice elaborate post to help out Mick.

These are the things you can expect at brian's site.

 

[Michael Jacobs]

You going to buy the avaitor RIch? I am going to pass on it, too many miles. How has your game been?

 

[Teris10]

Thanks for the interesting and informative posts!

Can someone explain the various shift methods? I think what I described in my initial post about my swing was what someone referred to here as a "double shift."

 

[swingeasttowest]

Mike

Once in a while check your PM's.............LOL

 

[RicoSuave]

Thanks for the interesting and informative posts!

Can someone explain the various shift methods? I think what I described in my initial post about my swing was what someone referred to here as a "double shift."

Have a look at the great explanation of Byron Nelson´s Swing by Brian for the double shift:
http://www.brianmanzella.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6236&highlight=double+shift

There you can see how in the backswing he is shifting from ellbow plane up to the turned shoulder pane and in the downswing back to the ellbw-plane.
A single shift is when you shift up to the turned shoulder plane, but don´t return back to the ellbowplane during your downwing, you stay on the turned shoulder plane till impact.

 

[Bill Miracle]

Can someone give insights on that move from

the top TSP back down to the EP????

I am fighting a big time OTT move...getting the shoulders working too soon in the downswing. I know its hard to have a swing thought midway through the swing to start the downswing but....

I need something to practice to get the thing started correctly.

Some say the "bump" their hips. What the heck is a "bump" motion? Some say that bring their right elbow back to their side. Some say don't worry about it, just pivot right and let it unwind.

When I hit the ball good, I must, somehow, do it right. But, I ususally drift back into the OTT move until I hit it so poorly, I get the video camera out and see it.

Mike, I got your video when I bought the GM book from you on ebay (didn't know who you were when I got it). I think it's great. but, when I make that move trying to hold the angle back to the ball...I think my shoulders get too involved.

Any comments would be appreciated!

 

[RicoSuave]

Bill...

do you slice the ball when coming OTT ?

 

[Bill Miracle]

When OTTing...

I usually slice or pull the driver and FW woods....pull most irons. Actually, when I'm at my worst at this...I am all over the place.

When this happens, I really focus on twistaway and I seem to clam down some and hit better shots....still pullling most irons, especially short irons.

I seem to drift in and out of OOT...from not at all to very heavy.

 

[Teris10]

From what I know about the swing (and I admit it's not nearly as much as others around here), the single shift as described above would be an OTT move, would it not? To answer my own question, I guess it would depend on how you define OTT. If you stay on the same plane the entire way, maybe it cna't be consireder OTT.

Since I started playing this game, I've always tried to get on what you all here would call the Elbow Plane on the downswing (because it's what I've been taught and that's what I see the vast majority of pros doing as well). There are exceptions, of course (Monty comes to mind), but is this considered a good place to play from? I used to hit like that and found nothing but inconsisitency. The closer I get to a solid double shift, the more accurate and consistent I seem to be (and that holds true for the majority of golfers I've seen try to get into the EP on the downsing.) Thoughts? Thanks again for all of the great info!

 

[RicoSuave]

Bill & Terris ....

the shifting has nothng to do with coming over the top.
In both ways you can aproach the ball from the inside.

As you can see on my swing (using the TSP on the downswing) im not pulling or sliceing. (athough in the last momet I´m switching to the Ellbowplane)
The big difference is just the steepness of the plane you are using.
When coming OTT, you turn the whole plane around a vertical axis to the left, so you will come from the outside in relation to your intended flight line.
IMO the double shift is more a swinginging and horizonal hinging thing,
whereas the TSP is better for hitter and angled hinger.
But this should be validated by the experts here.

So not coming OTT is a different story, as you said that your swing is not working from the ground up to the levers,
so I would wait for "Never Slice Again MarkII"