Swing Plane(s)??

[Jared Willerson]

Good lookin' motion there Rico.

 

[RicoSuave]

Good lookin' motion there Rico.

thanks glcoach, but what you can´t see is my overswing
(as you can see on my right foot, that my downswing doesn´t start there)

 

[Teris10]

Thanks, Rico. Do you have the rest of the video that includes the backswing? If so, I'd love to see it. If not, do you take the club away on that same plane or it is a shallower plane going back and steeper on the downswing? The downswing looks similar to my old swing, but I took the club away shallower than the TSP.

 

[Erik_K]

I usually slice or pull the driver and FW woods....pull most irons. Actually, when I'm at my worst at this...I am all over the place.

When this happens, I really focus on twistaway and I seem to clam down some and hit better shots....still pullling most irons, especially short irons.

I seem to drift in and out of OOT...from not at all to very heavy.

We gotta get you to hit from the inside. As Penick said, turn them into a Hooker. It's much easier to fix someone who hooks the ball.

In your case it sounds like the club face is OK. If you are making solid compression and pulling it to the left, then your face doesn't sound like it's open, but as Rico said you have a bent plane line.

To effectively draw the ball (not coming OTT), then you need to swing from the inside and the ball must start out to right field and then fall to the left.

I have been following Brian's advice, which is to play with my alignment. Place the clubface down so it's pointed at your target. Now, without changing that alignment, set up CLOSED. That is your feet, shoulders, hips, etc are RIGHT of the target. This will enable you to really attack from the inside BUT (believe it or not), you can still come OTT.

When you set up closed, use twist away and swing out to right field. I've noticed that when I do this, I get a lower, more pentrating ball flight, WAYYYY more roll, and divots that are fairly straight!!!! If you are OTT, that divot was likely pointing to the LEFT. For the first time ever at the range I was actually drawing the ball at will. Very, very rarely did a ball fall to the right (club face was way open in that case).

Summary:

Club face positioned normally
set up closed
twistaway (and fully rolled left arm!!)
swing to right field

watch that sucker draw!!!!

 

[Teris10]

Erik, regarding the twist-away: are you talking about rolling the left forearm for a right hander on the backswing? If so, doesn't that lead to a very open clubface at the top, requiring an equally dramatic counter-roll compensation to close it on the downswing?

 

[RicoSuave]

the whole swing

Thanks, Rico. Do you have the rest of the video that includes the backswing? If so, I'd love to see it. If not, do you take the club away on that same plane or it is a shallower plane going back and steeper on the downswing? The downswing looks similar to my old swing, but I took the club away shallower than the TSP.

1 year ago , I posted my swing on this forum and Erik, mizuno-joe, birdieman and other great guys on this forum gave me precious tips.
One of these was, that it would be good for me, how Couples is swinging.
So I tried to take the club away outside, to keep the clubhead outside (down the line this means right) of the hands. So I tried this and made this video.
What you can see there is not my normal swing and I just posted the downswing to hear from Brian, that it is o.k. to go down the TSP and switch to the EP in the last moment (he said it is a good variation, he also used years ago).

My big problems are, as you can see:
the club is turned too flat (halfway in the backswing)
so it gets trapped behind,... so I compensate it with the lift of the ellbow (flying ellbow), causing an overswing too (IMO).

 

[Erik_K]

Erik, regarding the twist-away: are you talking about rolling the left forearm for a right hander on the backswing? If so, doesn't that lead to a very open clubface at the top, requiring an equally dramatic counter-roll compensation to close it on the downswing?

Sorry, I was not clear enough. You don't want to roll the forearms open in the backswing. That would leave you wide open at the top.

Conduct your normal backswing. If you are a swinger, then you will likely use a startup swivel (hands turn to the plane).

Twistaway, if anything, will make you closed at the top. Now, maintain that twist (using twistaway) and after the ball is struck roll that left arm through impact. Brian has a detailed article on the subject, with pictures. I think Brian calls this, 'added insurance.'

 

[Bill Miracle]

A lot of great info here but...

what is your first move down? If it is a hip bump...what is the bump??? I don't understand bump.

Is it drop the arms straight down? Is it return the elbow to the hip?

I think a lot of my struggle is that first move down. I believe I get the shoulders moving first that causes OOT.

 

[Erik_K]

what is your first move down? If it is a hip bump...what is the bump??? I don't understand bump.

Is it drop the arms straight down? Is it return the elbow to the hip?

I think a lot of my struggle is that first move down. I believe I get the shoulders moving first that causes OOT.

It is indeed a sequencing issue and for many they are trying to muscle or hunt the ball with their arms or shoulders. This offsets the orbit of your swing and have almost zero chance of hitting from the inside. In fact, the steeper you come down, the more leakage (or throwaway) you'll need just to hit the damn ball.

Often a more concerted move with the lower body (to start the downswing) is good idea. Be careful with bumping the hips, you might induce a lot more tilt and overdo a good thing. The reason why people tell you to start the downswing from the ground up, is that while you are shifting to the left (preferably just before you complete the backswing) the club will drop DOWN in RESPONSE to that shift back to the left side.

So yes, in your case, your first move down could indeed be killing your motion. The more you bend that plane line to the left, the more your going to tend to pull it that direction.

Some other helpful images: Think of a camera right behind you (got this from martin hall). You want to show off your left arm to the camera for as long as you can. If you are severly OTT, that left arm will disappear quickly and your back will be come visible very early on.

What has worked for me is swinging with an INTENTION to get the ball to start to the right. I don't mean hitting a ball that starts straight and fades/slices to the right, I mean a ball that was struck from the inside. Swing with a purpose. I think there's a training aid called the visiontrak that might be of some use to you.

Or, I believe Burner or Hue had a similar (and much cheaper training aid). Place a club along your target line and another just behind it, but angled out to right field (say 30 degrees).

other ideas: place a sponge or head cover next to your ball. If you approach from the outside, you might make contact there.

Give that stuff a shot!

 

[RicoSuave]

working from the ground up

is the most natural way, when we throw balls as we are young and no one told us to do so.

Here is a young guy throwing a baseball: He shifts the weight to the left and pulls his whole system with his turning hip.

The only difference is that he is facing the target. So for a golfer a small sway to the left with the hips (hip-bump) has two benefits:
1.) Shifting the weight to the left
2.) Tilting your spine to the right, which makes your shoulder come down and not around.

The great thing on throwing balls is that you immediately understand the "hand controlled pivot", as you never give a thought to your hip when you want to throw the ball to a target. You just think of ball-hands-target and the body is acting sort of automatic.

What we don´t want is a throw like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2vIdF0dUkE
this baby is swinging over the top, so starting with the upper body

Even the sony-robot is doing it right: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HD_qluCIz0E&mode=related&search=

 

[tobell]

Rico,

IMO your alignments are pretty good--"so you've got that going for you--which is nice"-Bill Murray.

Don't even mind the head going down @ impact; however the head/spine @ takeaway moves upward too much. I think @ take-away that would allow you to maintain your spine angle a little better could only improve an already decent move.

 

[Bill Miracle]

Based on some of the suggestions here...

would this help or hurt?

http://www.superswingtrainer.com/index.htm.

 

[Erik_K]

would this help or hurt?

http://www.superswingtrainer.com/index.htm.

I wouldn't invest in that sort of training aid. What if you are single or double shifter?

 

[Bill Miracle]

Hmmmmm,

I wouldn't invest in that sort of training aid. What if you are single or double shifter?

Hard to shift on that thing, huh???

Taking a look at that VisionTrack....Some thoughts came to mind. I'll try them out on the range today with a can of spray paint.

 

[birdie_man]

Hey Brian on page 1 you talk about how to draw the Elbow Plane...

"From the ball through where the right forearm would be in it were on-plane at Address."

Looking at that first pic of Nelson....I don't get it.

If his right forearm were on plane in that pic....errr...uh.....

...I dunno. (don't get it)

 

[birdie_man]

Anyone?

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

If the right forearm was on plane with the shaft at address and the hands were set to the eblow plane this would be his elbow plane.

 

[birdie_man]

Ah ic (I think)....

So he'd have to stand further away then...(yes?)...