Table Top Release - Jacobs - Timing

[cwdlaw223]

Is the table top type of release supposed to reduce the forearm roll (as a way to square the clubface at impact)?

Am I correct that the forearm roll has less room for error in trying to square the clubface (than the table top release)?

When I try this move it feels like my hands are much lower than the club at impact and I can feel the clubface better through my hands. It also seems like my swing is slower. Probably because I'm a roller and have tried to time the rolling of my forearms all my life to square the clubface because that feels more powerful. Definitely going to try this move the next time I'm on Trackman.

 

[finncox]

I too am a roller who is trying to reform his ways. When all of the release threads started, I would sometimes think I was "flicking" the club as Brian and Co. described, only to come to the realization that I was in fact rolling it a good bit of the time. Man, I hit some big hooks.

When I get this new move right, it is a very different feeling. At times, it's hard to trust the bend-back release, especially when you're used to rolling to hit a draw. But, I found that it's more about where you "direct" your hands early in the downswing, or where you "out-toss" (as Brian has already described in Ideas About the Release). If you throw it back behind you a little more, you can still hit a nice little draw while not closing the face a ton through impact.

For me, one of the weirdest things to get used to as a roller is the fact that your finish, if you do the move that Michael is describing, will feel more like a "fade-ish" finish to someone that's been arm-rolling. But, you can easily hit draw using this move, and not rely on face closure through impact.

 

[Kevin Shields]

Without going into too many details, I don't see any good reason to have to roll the face. That being said, you can absolutely play well from there but my opinion is that tere is such an easier way to go about things.

To me roll = cover up for another flaw

 

[finncox]

Without going into too many details, I don't see any good reason to have to roll the face. That being said, you can absolutely play well from there but my opinion is that tere is such an easier way to go about things.

To me roll = cover up for another flaw

I agree Kev....and while y'all have been saying this for a while now, it really is less effort to let the wrists go through flexion/extension into and through impact. For someone who is in the middle of making the transition and learning to trust it, a lightbulb goes off when you realize how much effort you were putting into twisting/rolling the club like a screwdriver, as Michael describes. Sure, you can play golf that way, like a lot of people have, but why do it if you don't have to?

 

[SteveT]

Thank you for posting Jacob's "left arm replacement" video and this is the first time I see it here. Did you get permission from Jacobs to post it here because he did mention in the video that this topic was to be posted "exclusively" on his own website?

There are some very serious anatomical, geometric and even kinetic aspects that must be better defined than just using a "tabletop" model and the "replacement" concept. I can't and won't comment unless Jacobs releases his video for open discussion here.

BTW .... If anybody here has viewed Mo Norman's swing in a live demo, I think you would agree that the older Mo definitely "windmilled" his lead arm and club in an "above the tabletop manner when swinging his driver. I never saw him demo his short irons but I imagine he would have gone below the table top, otherwise it would be a disaster..!!!

 

[cwdlaw223]

I got the video from YouTube. I didn't post his left arm replacement video which is also on YouTube. I respect the work of Mike and Brian and have no desire to cause controvery, but by Mike posting this video on YouTube it leads me to believe it's open to discussion. If I'm wrong I hope Brian removes the post alltogether.

 

[cwdlaw223]

I too am a roller who is trying to reform his ways. When all of the release threads started, I would sometimes think I was "flicking" the club as Brian and Co. described, only to come to the realization that I was in fact rolling it a good bit of the time. Man, I hit some big hooks.

When I get this new move right, it is a very different feeling. At times, it's hard to trust the bend-back release, especially when you're used to rolling to hit a draw. But, I found that it's more about where you "direct" your hands early in the downswing, or where you "out-toss" (as Brian has already described in Ideas About the Release). If you throw it back behind you a little more, you can still hit a nice little draw while not closing the face a ton through impact.

For me, one of the weirdest things to get used to as a roller is the fact that your finish, if you do the move that Michael is describing, will feel more like a "fade-ish" finish to someone that's been arm-rolling. But, you can easily hit draw using this move, and not rely on face closure through impact.

How much did you consistently have your clubface closed on Trackman? 4* for me and my roll. Played that way for 25 years. Going to be hard to change the roll and the power I love to feel from it.

 

[Matt 4-L]

I have always struggled with not lining up the arm and sweetspot, I could tell by watching video of good players that I should be under the table top sort of speak but the question is how to do it. I think for guys who drag the handle it is hard to not line the two up and I think the secret is to use the right wrist to straighten into impact instead of dragging and trying to uncock the wrist. It feels like when I drag the club centrifigual force is trying to line the two up on me, this is my layman ideas, would like to hear from the experts.

 

[siksta]

Your gonna have to steepen the arm or get it vertical sooner or later.

 

[finncox]

How much did you consistently have your clubface closed on Trackman? 4* for me and my roll. Played that way for 25 years. Going to be hard to change the roll and the power I love to feel from it.

Haven't been on TM in a while. I just know that I had been hitting a fair amount of hooks. I'm sure it was getting pretty closed at times.

 

[drewyallop]

Importance for putting?

 

[SteveT]

How much did you consistently have your clubface closed on Trackman? 4* for me and my roll. Played that way for 25 years. Going to be hard to change the roll and the power I love to feel from it.

But rolling the clubhead into impact doesn't contribute to 'power'... it only attempts to quickly finalize release with a square clubface.

Rolling requires elegant timing because you are introducing a rapid axial rotation of your lead forearm to roll the clubhead square. It's unecessarily risky, and is a waste of energy.

Just think about it... and assume you hit on the sweet spot, you are rolling the clubhead around the axis where impact occurs. The toe is closing while the heel is opening. The toe rotates into the ball while the heel rotates away from the ball...!!!!

Absolutely nothing is gained ... and the only 'power' you 'feel' is your forearm torquing your hand... and then the club's inertia around it's vertical gravitational axis (the line above the shaft you get from the butt to the clubface when hanging the club vertically).

What you may be executing and feeling the 'power' is Jacobs' below the tabletop replacement of the lead arm at the last moment going into final release... ya think??

 

[cwdlaw223]

Steve T -

So you don't believe forearm rolling action adds one mph to clubhead speed?

 

[SteveT]

Steve T -

So you don't believe forearm rolling action adds one mph to clubhead speed?

I suppose you might feeel you have gained some clubhead speed, but rapid rolling going into final release is a risky manoevre that will produce some kind of pull if you hit towards the fast closing toe. If you are happy with long hooks and the powerful feeel of snapping your lead hand into impact, go ahead and practice it for 10,000 hours. A smooth gradual release is much more reliable... believe it.

 

[WoodbridgeGolf37]

Worked on "hands below the table" at the range last night. This made the flexion/extension/left hand on the wall much more achievable for me. This is certainly a thought I'm going to focus on while working on the tour release. Good stuff MJ.