That Over-the-Top move...

[birdie_man]

Hey I've got video at home actually. I'll post later.

Here yall:

http://www.putfile.com/birdie_man/media

I think in the backyard one I was experimenting with swinging more right...(doesn't look like it tho)...one of my random experimentations.

...

Ya....pretty flat backswing....loopy transition. I've played like this a while tho and to tell the truth it took me a while to realize what I was actually doing. (I had to see it on video first)

But I can hit it pretty good like that and work it both ways + high/low. Other things are in the works tho. (I think it has to go)

 

[Perfect Impact]

Could you describe the spring-loaded/tremendously compressed over turn backswing a little further? I'm having some trouble visualizing you what your are saying. Would it be better to take the club straight back and then up over the right shoulder?

It certainly makes sense and I appreciate the help.

People confuse what the clubshaft does with what the hand does.

In the backswing, the LEFT HAND should move PARALLEL TO A WALL ERECTED ON THE TARGET LINE until at least waist high, and even when it gets there and continues further up, its distance from the wall increase A VERY VERY SMALL AMOUNT. Where the clubSHAFT AND CLUBHEAD, however, go IS NOT A FUNCTION OF TAKING YOUR HANDS TO A DIFFERENT PLACE; IT IS THE ROTATION OF YOUR LEFT FOREARM THAT PLACES THE CLUBSHAFT 'OVER THE RIGHT SHOULDER'. It is mandatory to distinguish where the HAND is and where the SHAFT is.

Cock your left wrist with only your left hand on the club. Put your left hand waist high parallel to the target line. Rotate your forearm. See how the clubhead moves, as a result of ROTATION OF YOUR ARM, from straight vertical, horizontal, or anywhere in between - how it IS ROTATION OF THE ARM that determines the location of the clubhead. So in a backswing, your HAND and left arm must not be forced around at all: you get the club to the correct top position (TSP) by having your HAND in the right place and by ROTATING THE ARM to position the clubshaft where IT belongs.

I misspoke in the earlier comment: a photographer looking at you from down the line should see your left HAND coming directly toward him as you start the backswing, and after that hand went higher than your belt, it would just barely move to his left a bit = a bit further from the wall erected on the target line. BUT YOUR FOREARM ROTATION would have "aimed" the clubshaft so that as your arm rises more, IT, the SHAFT, will "seek out your right shoulder" and be aligned with IT.

So there IS no springload buildup of tension. Your left arm is NOT so tightly pressed against your torso that it springs away as you make your transition. IT is in a comfortable position with your right elbow SEPARATED from your ribs, ALSO in a comfortable hanging position, and then the transition uses ESSENTIALLY VERTICAL torso turn to pull your left upper arm down, push your right shoulder down, your right elbow down, and the clubshaft DIRECTLY ON PLANE without any compensations or OTT tendencies.

BE SURE your grip doesn't cause any such thing either. If you are holding the right hand on the club with a death grip and it is in even a slightly wrong alignment vis-a-vis the shaft, IT WILL ALSO ACT AS A SPRING LOADED GUN and IT can be responsible for "firing the bullet" in the wrong direction initially, and again, once it STARTS, a bullet cannot change direction.

HTH

 

[Erik_K]

has reared its ugly head once again in my swing. I've tried axis tilt, moving the left shoulder up, moving the right shoulder down, and bumping the hips but still get above the plane on the downswing (Confirmed on Video). In additon to the ones that I have mentioned above, anyone else care to add a few home remedies for correcting the over-the-top move? If so, please post them for all to review and enjoy! Thanks!

By the way, the educated hands thing has never worked for me; I was educated in North Carolina .

What's really helped me:

1) Inside aft quadrant of the ball

2) A solid understanding as to why you need to strike the ball from the inside. If you think you need to deliver the clubface directly behind the ball (as many pop golf instructors advocate), that is a big part of your problem

3) Swing out right field more, or down the first base line. Remember that you stand to the left of your intended target and, for me, I need to feel like I am intentionally swinging 15-30 yards RIGHT of the target just to hit a shot that goes fairly straight

David Lee (gravity golf) believes most problems (even OTT) is rooted in your head. There's an instinct to hunt for the ball instead of making a swing and trusting the physics. As such, a big problem for most struggling golfers is their pivot and/or transition. Give me a guy that slices, and I'll show you one that very likely has a poor pivot. Granted someone with a pretty swing (me, for example) can STILL slice the ball, and that (as Brian would say) is a clubFACE control issue.

All drills that get you to swing to the right (at least a little bit) are akin to placing some tees, sponge, or a head cover to the right of the ball. Placing a club on the ground that is angled to right field can help tremendously as your mind (and eyes) can see the path; the inside track the club must take.

OK. I am off to see Brian over at PGA. I'll post a message about our discussions later on! Take care!

 

[starretj]

OTT Help

C21,
One thing that has helped me with this problem is I feel that I am trying to hit the ball more towards the toe of the club. This took me a while to figure out, but it is based on Geometry. If you are hitting the inside of the back of the ball with a slightly open clubface then the target line will actually pass thru the clubhead closer to the toe of the club at impact. It is not a lot of distance, but I have to feel more distance in my swing than what it actually is.
I hope that this helps you, it has helped me immensly. If Brian and others disagree with this statement than please listen to those that are much more intelligent in these matters.

Jim S.

 

[Sonic_Doom]

When looking at video of my swing, I take it back inside as others do, stay relatively flat at the top, then the club shaft goes from a parallel-to-target condition to a pointing slightly right-of-target condition (I'm a lefty). It looks as though this change is due to a shoulder move (rotation) first, after that its unrecoverable (bullet travelling down the barrel as PI would put it).

It seems contradictory to take the clup up, up, up if the idea is to strike the ball from an inside track. I always (probably misguided tho) thought the takeaway should mirror the approach i.e. take away inside to return it from the inside.

Maybe its not quite as bad as I thought after reading Jims post wrt Brian. I mean I do hit the ball OK. Those misses right, especially with shorter clubs really hurts my game though.

 

[LiftOff]

People confuse what the clubshaft does with what the hand does.

Cock your left wrist with only your left hand on the club. Put your left hand waist high parallel to the target line. Rotate your forearm. See how the clubhead moves, as a result of ROTATION OF YOUR ARM, from straight vertical, horizontal, or anywhere in between - how it IS ROTATION OF THE ARM that determines the location of the clubhead. So in a backswing, your HAND and left arm must not be forced around at all: you get the club to the correct top position (TSP) by having your HAND in the right place and by ROTATING THE ARM to position the clubshaft where IT belongs.


HTH

So if the left arm rotates such that the club is pointing left of the target at the end/top, is that what is termed "laid off"? Also, is that what contributes, when excessive, to getting "stuck"?

Thanks, Cliff

 

[Perfect Impact]

Yes, they say 'laid off' when there is not enough rotation of the left forearm. BUT, if you don't reach parallel, IT IS NOT laid off: because it won't GET to parallel-to-the-target line UNTIL it is also parallel to the ground. And if you pass parallel to the ground at top it SHOULD be pointed right of the target; because that is how the spokes of a tilted wheel are aimed when the wheel itself is rolling in the right direction.

 

[golfie]

Yes, they say 'laid off' when there is not enough rotation of the left forearm. BUT, if you don't reach parallel, IT IS NOT laid off: because it won't GET to parallel-to-the-target line UNTIL it is also parallel to the ground. And if you pass parallel to the ground at top it SHOULD be pointed right of the target; because that is how the spokes of a tilted wheel are aimed when the wheel itself is rolling in the right direction.

Over rotation (Turning of the left wrist) of the left arm causes laid off.

 

[LiftOff]

Yes, they say 'laid off' when there is not enough rotation of the left forearm. BUT, if you don't reach parallel, IT IS NOT laid off: because it won't GET to parallel-to-the-target line UNTIL it is also parallel to the ground. And if you pass parallel to the ground at top it SHOULD be pointed right of the target; because that is how the spokes of a tilted wheel are aimed when the wheel itself is rolling in the right direction.

So I had it backwards. Under-rotation will point it right of the target and that's 'laid off'. Is there a name for over rotated? Where does 'getting stuck' come in?

Thanks again for the education.

 

[blehnhard]

Hands from the Wall?

George - would the following be a good arguement as to the small amount of "inward" motion of the hands during the backswing.

At address, a vertical line down from the hands would hit the ground at or a little outside the toe line. At the top of the backswing, a vertical line down from the hands would hit the ground at or a little outside the heel line.

Therefore, the hands have only moved "inwards" from address position approx. 8 to 12 inches (would depend upon posture, build etc.)

In the meantime, the hands have moved upwards 2.5' to 3' (my guess, did not measure).

Therefore, the upward motion should occur at 2.5 to 3 times the rate of inward motion.

Shoot holes in the above if you like.

Bruce

 

[Perfect Impact]

Not at all: it is a good image indeed, and is of course dependent on the length of the club, and the plane of that particular club - a function of its length and your height.

I like to pretend my arms are the spokes of a wheel that is rolling towards the target; whenever my left arm is parallel to the ground it must also be parallel to the target line: THAT BY ITSELF controls me. And in addition, I "seek out my right shoulder" with my left thumb as a means of continuing the backswing to where it needs to go.

From down the line, my clubshaft intersects the tip of my right shoulder as it gets near the top.

HTH.

 

[c21heel]

Very educational thread with lots of great inputs. I was thinking again today about getting the club to far to the inside, especially rolling the club to the inside...

If one were to roll the club to the inside, wouldn't that put the right hand even with or slightly below the left hand? I would think this would be a death move as ideally, shouldn't the right hand be above the left hand at the 9 o'clock position on both the backswing and downswing?

 

[puttmad]

....

If one were to roll the club to the inside, wouldn't that put the right hand even with or slightly below the left hand? I would think this would be a death move as ideally, shouldn't the right hand be above the left hand at the 9 o'clock position on both the backswing and downswing?

That is not the right description C21...
If the right hand were below the left at 9-o-clock the clubshaft would be pointing at the ground behind you....pretty strange position to be in....

At 9-oclock the clubshaft should be angled (by rotating the left arm) so it points down to a point about 18"-2 ft behind the ball on the target line...

 

[c21heel]

Understand, but the right hand would still be somewhat above the left hand. The nine o'clock position that I'm talking about is waist high on the backswing. If you were looking at me from in front. My head would be 12 o'clock and my feet would be 6 o'clock.

 

[puttmad]

....

Understand, but the right hand would still be somewhat above the left hand. The nine o'clock position that I'm talking about is waist high on the backswing. If you were looking at me from in front. My head would be 12 o'clock and my feet would be 6 o'clock.

Of course you right hand is above the left. there is no other place it could be, unless you use a kak-handed grip...