I honestly dont know the new terms y'll use that much; but Fowler, Mickelson and Duffner clearly pull themseves way back off the ball coming down. Duffner is "anti'goat hump" is that the right lingo? I for one would be concerned that the lingo gets too parachial, ala TGM, and the great message you are trying to get out is thwarted by the communication barier. Just an old timers 2 cents...
The anti-tumble?
- Thread starter lia41985
- Start date
- Status
DCgolf, are you saying that both their heads and their tush lines move away from the golf ball coming down? Or something else? At any rate, not sure Mickelson is comparable here. Seems to me that Mickelson's tush line moves toward the ball during the downswing.......
Alright, my knowledge is limited but let's see if I understand what Brian is saying here. The key difference between Sergio and Calcavecchia is that Calcavecchia "reverse tumbles" for nearly the entire downswing while Sergio shifts early from "reverse tumble" (laying it off) to "forward tumble" during the end of the downswing.
So when Brian says "EVERYONE WHO MAKES CONTACT HAS TUMBLE!!!" he's making the obvious point that the clubhead must come down somehow--either via "reverse tumble" or "forward tumble." You can't hit the ball if the shaft is still vertical with the clubhead in the air.
Did I translate Brian correctly? Anything important that I missed?
Im saying that the guys with out hand path all seem, as a compatible move, to pull their upper body back away coming into impact. Looks like a shank if they don't. Again my apoologies for the lack of vernacular here but thats my old way of seeing golf swings. There are compatible and incompatible moves. Great players have compatible ones.
Interesting point. But isn't Hogan a counterexample? Great player. His handpath was more "out" than most. But his head didn't pull away.
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
Hogan out hand path? You take that back right now!!!!
We're talking about the down-the-line view, right? From that perspective, yes, I think that from the top of the backswing, Hogan's hands moved more horizontally than most. Disagree? Prove me wrong.
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
If I had the know how to post some lines up I would. Based on his height, flat shoulder turn and low hand height at the top I probably understand where you're coming from but Hogans shaft steepens due to his hand path as well as anyone, ever.
Aaaaah, now I see where the confusion might be. I'll use this video (3 minutes in) as a reference:
<iframe src="http://player.vimeo.com/video/20641989?badge=0" width="500" height="250" frameborder="0" webkitAllowFullScreen mozallowfullscreen allowFullScreen></iframe> <p><a href="http://vimeo.com/20641989">lowbackmodel</a> from <a href="http://vimeo.com/user1093431">Brian Manzella</a> on <a href="http://vimeo.com">Vimeo</a>.</p>
Think about the concave hand path Brian drew there. There are two parts to it: an initial vertical path and a later horizontal path.
I say: Hogan's hand path had extremely, extremely little concavity compared to most good golfers. What say you, sir?
lia41985
New member
He seems to consciously build the "lay off" into his backswing so that he doesn't have to transition into the "lay off" via a transitional "reverse tumble"/"anti-tumble". Sergio and Rickie would be doing more of the latter, it seems to me.
lia41985
New member
Those 2 cents always spend like 5 bucks, sir. Thanks. I just find it interesting that guys that "back up" usually also "goat hump". The early extension "causes" the back up, does that make sense? If not I certainly can try and explain further with pictures, etc. Please let me know.
Not that you want to see my swing or anything...
lia41985
New member
Or component matching, in the TGM vernacular, as it were
Ironic because that was sorta the whole "point" of the book.
Last edited:
lia41985
New member
Lifter and Kevin,
You guys are both on the same page. What Lifter sees as an out hand path isn't in relation to where Hogan's hands and arms are at address, hence Kevin's point about Hogan's hand path not being "out" (not in relation to setup).
That man, bless his soul (shout out to Dariusz) did not have low hands or vertical arms at address with that grip end anywhere near his junk. That was only for Mrs. Hogan.
For reference purposes:
I didn't draw those ambiguous lines.
There's a lot of ulnar deviation in his wrists at setup. There's not much verticality to the angles of those arms. His hands are also "outside" his shoulders. His hands will naturally go "out" because that's where they start at address in relation to his shoulders. Otherwise he'd toe it and hook it. Hogan didn't like hooks.
You guys are both on the same page. What Lifter sees as an out hand path isn't in relation to where Hogan's hands and arms are at address, hence Kevin's point about Hogan's hand path not being "out" (not in relation to setup).
That man, bless his soul (shout out to Dariusz) did not have low hands or vertical arms at address with that grip end anywhere near his junk. That was only for Mrs. Hogan.
For reference purposes:
I didn't draw those ambiguous lines.
There's a lot of ulnar deviation in his wrists at setup. There's not much verticality to the angles of those arms. His hands are also "outside" his shoulders. His hands will naturally go "out" because that's where they start at address in relation to his shoulders. Otherwise he'd toe it and hook it. Hogan didn't like hooks.
Last edited:
A lot of us instinctively stand up and raise our head way up during the transition. I definitely used to do that big-time. Fixing that problem requires a lot of effort but for me it resulted in a lot better ballflight. It helps to understand that pushing your ass back through the tush line makes the transition a lot easier. Eventually, I've come to appreciate that increasing the spine angle during transition is a highly athletic move that most of the best players in the world instinctively do (probably since they were little kids).
lia41985
New member
Thanks for your thoughts, Lifter.
By spine angle I think you mean forward bend, is that correct?
It's been stated by multiple sources that multiple elite golfers have the most forward bend at "last parallel" then progressively "lose it" to and through impact. Have you heard that? What do you think of that notion?
Clearly I have a lot to learn if I think those are birds of a feather (e.g. "back up" and "goat hump"). I know they are two distinct moves. I just thought they occurred together but I guess not!
By the way "managing" forward bend while "managing" side bend is pretty tough. Athletics, indeed.
Unless you're a natural like "WULS" Seriously, get that knit into your golf caps, wulsy. It's as catchy as "RORS"
By spine angle I think you mean forward bend, is that correct?
It's been stated by multiple sources that multiple elite golfers have the most forward bend at "last parallel" then progressively "lose it" to and through impact. Have you heard that? What do you think of that notion?
Clearly I have a lot to learn if I think those are birds of a feather (e.g. "back up" and "goat hump"). I know they are two distinct moves. I just thought they occurred together but I guess not!
By the way "managing" forward bend while "managing" side bend is pretty tough. Athletics, indeed.
Unless you're a natural like "WULS"
Seriously, get that knit into your golf caps, wulsy. It's as catchy as "RORS"
Last edited:
Hogan's hand path?
Great post, lia. Didn't notice the ulnar deviation before, interesting observation.
However, when you wrote:
I was a bit surprised to read that. To me, that seems like a very simplistic way to look at hand path. That's just an observation that at impact, some golfers return to their original shaft plane and some return way way way above it. Hand path plays some role in that. But so do a lot of other factors, (above all maintaining the tush line).
With their flat swings, Hogan and Sergio's initial hand paths are relatively horizontal. Yet their hands still manage to reach the shaft plane at impact.
In contrast, a lot of players with vertical swings have initial hand paths that are relatively vertical. Yet their hands still end up way, way above the shaft plane at impact.
That's why I think that it's not useful to describe Hogan and Sergio's hand paths as "vertical." All that that does is create unnecessary confusion.
For the novice slicer, yes, it's useful to have a vertical hand path so he doesn't throw his hands out "over the top" (among other reasons). But obviously Hogan's transition was very different from a novice slicer's, which was why it was good for him to employ a relatively horizontal initial hand path.
Great post, lia. Didn't notice the ulnar deviation before, interesting observation.
However, when you wrote:
I was a bit surprised to read that. To me, that seems like a very simplistic way to look at hand path. That's just an observation that at impact, some golfers return to their original shaft plane and some return way way way above it. Hand path plays some role in that. But so do a lot of other factors, (above all maintaining the tush line).
With their flat swings, Hogan and Sergio's initial hand paths are relatively horizontal. Yet their hands still manage to reach the shaft plane at impact.
In contrast, a lot of players with vertical swings have initial hand paths that are relatively vertical. Yet their hands still end up way, way above the shaft plane at impact.
That's why I think that it's not useful to describe Hogan and Sergio's hand paths as "vertical." All that that does is create unnecessary confusion.
For the novice slicer, yes, it's useful to have a vertical hand path so he doesn't throw his hands out "over the top" (among other reasons). But obviously Hogan's transition was very different from a novice slicer's, which was why it was good for him to employ a relatively horizontal initial hand path.
lia41985
New member
What you're saying, sir, is that it's more complicated than "that."
I agree
However, and as you alluded to, ultimately these "prescriptions" need to be given to the right "patients" along with the right "dosages."
That's more art than science.
That's more calibration than automation.
That's more experimentation than feigned certainty (actual ignorance).
I agree
However, and as you alluded to, ultimately these "prescriptions" need to be given to the right "patients" along with the right "dosages."
That's more art than science.
That's more calibration than automation.
That's more experimentation than feigned certainty (actual ignorance).
Lia, with "spine angle" I'm intentionally simplifying so I can highlight the fault that many (if not most) high handicappers have. It's as simple as draw a line on the tush line and top of the head at setup. Then watch what they do relative to those lines during transition. High handicappers stand their tush up off the line and the head goes up during transition. The best players stay against the tush line and their heads go down during transition (although some stay level).
One thing you wrote:
There's a great chance that that's exactly right. I'm almost certain that the heads of the best players reach their lowest point somewhere near last parallel if not exactly there. Then they do come up a bit just before impact.
One thing you wrote:
It's been stated by multiple sources that multiple elite golfers have the most forward bend at "last parallel" then progressively "lose it" to and through impact. Have you heard that? What do you think of that notion?
There's a great chance that that's exactly right. I'm almost certain that the heads of the best players reach their lowest point somewhere near last parallel if not exactly there. Then they do come up a bit just before impact.
- Status