the wind up to the dan plan is... this guy named dan quit life to test malcohm gladwell’s 10,000 hr rule on golf. can he get good enough to make a pro tour in 10,000 hrs having no golf background? he’s got a website (i sent him some dough to help) dan plan dot com, where he chronicles his progress for the whole world to see, which leads me to the obvious question. how good can a guy get at golf, understanding that tournament golf results is a different animal, altogether. so, for the purpose of this question lets remove results from the equation and assume we’re talking about getting to a pro tour tournament level of golf. is it possible to make yourself a pro tournament level golfer in 10,000 hrs?
the dan plan: how good can a guy get?
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He aint done yet, but I doubt he'll make that level. He's an 11.x now...
I have my doubts about the 10,000 hours. Some people could spend 50,000 hours and not get to tour level. So what does that prove about anything, other than their ability to judge their use of time and thinking skills...
As to my own skills, I could see getting to scratch on medium length courses(*), but no way of getting to +6 on 7200 yard courses.
* among all choices life offers, I have not made that an outright focus.
I have my doubts about the 10,000 hours. Some people could spend 50,000 hours and not get to tour level. So what does that prove about anything, other than their ability to judge their use of time and thinking skills...
As to my own skills, I could see getting to scratch on medium length courses(*), but no way of getting to +6 on 7200 yard courses.
* among all choices life offers, I have not made that an outright focus.
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SteveT
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No..... the 10,000 rule assumes you start when you are a child with maximum brain plasticity... and you 'grow' into the golfswing, violin, piano, whatever. Your brainlet gets hard-wired into your obsession from childhood after about 3,000 hours of masochistic whole 'gestalt' trial and error and error and error effort ..... and the remaining 7,000 hours after a late puberty are needed to fix up the mess.
A fully matured adult brainlet with a stone-cold locked cortex structure cannot apply the 10,000 hour rule.... it's like spinning your wheels in the mud.... you go nowhere over a long long time ... aka trying to teach an old dog a new release...
A fully matured adult brainlet with a stone-cold locked cortex structure cannot apply the 10,000 hour rule.... it's like spinning your wheels in the mud.... you go nowhere over a long long time ... aka trying to teach an old dog a new release...
Think Bell curve
As with anything, there is a bell curve in terms of outcome factoring in talent, ability to grind, and perhaps luck, among other factors.
It is clearly easier for an average kid if good instruction starts early and family has resources to be be supportive. Much easier if the kid shows some pre-existing potential.
But I think a few adults can manage to achieve much higher than we or they think. PGA may or may not be a realistic measuring stick. (How many super qualified guys do not make it, really?)
Perhaps not this Dan, but another Dan who is currently an accountant by vocation but a weekend warrior who cannot afford to pursue golf as a priority.
As with anything, there is a bell curve in terms of outcome factoring in talent, ability to grind, and perhaps luck, among other factors.
It is clearly easier for an average kid if good instruction starts early and family has resources to be be supportive. Much easier if the kid shows some pre-existing potential.
But I think a few adults can manage to achieve much higher than we or they think. PGA may or may not be a realistic measuring stick. (How many super qualified guys do not make it, really?)
Perhaps not this Dan, but another Dan who is currently an accountant by vocation but a weekend warrior who cannot afford to pursue golf as a priority.
Jared Willerson
Super Moderator
He will be a plus handicap. If he does well in State Amateur tournaments, I would consider it a success.
Someone really needs to crack the code and allow adults to learn like children. Whether it be a drug, hypnosis, whatever. To me that is the key.
Someone really needs to crack the code and allow adults to learn like children. Whether it be a drug, hypnosis, whatever. To me that is the key.
birly-shirly
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I agree the importance of this. I'm less clear on what the barriers are to "learning like children". There are lots of barriers that aren't physiological or neurological - like grown-up attitudes, assumptions, anxieties, lack of time, expectations, impatience and tendency to analyse...
Whether or not he makes the tour, I hope that the Dan plan demonstrates that a huge amount of progress is possible, given exposure to decent information, good quality practice, and a lot of reps.
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SteveT
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But adults do attempt to learn the golfswing "like children".... they want to do the whole swing on the first try, and when they can't do it they demand an instant golf tip that will fix what they already got.
"Tell me what to do!", they cry out... "just show it to me and I'll try it." ... which is how children learn.
I see, I read... therefore I can ... oh yeah..?!
B-Shirly, who know what swing techniques he might be using...
With Bman, perhaps he could get to scratch in 500 hours (1 hour per day 5 hours per week) for 2 years. So again, why the bother with 10,000.............particularly if either his instruction or his constitution winds up limiting him.
With Bman, perhaps he could get to scratch in 500 hours (1 hour per day 5 hours per week) for 2 years. So again, why the bother with 10,000.............particularly if either his instruction or his constitution winds up limiting him.
Jared Willerson
Super Moderator
I guess the ability to imitate like children would be a better wish, Steve.
birly-shirly
New
Maybe it doesn't matter what swing techniques he learns - maybe there are several "methods" (and I use the term with caution) that are competent for the task - provided that the other bits of the jigsaw are addressed too.
Maybe skills are more important than technique.
I think the 10,000 hrs thing is overdone. I think quality is more important than quantity - so I agree that some guys could put in huge amounts of hours and not progress even satisfactorily. But I think that could be explained in terms of poor quality practice and not necessarily a lack of talent.
birly-shirly
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You're talking about learning from verbal instruction. Not a huge surprise there - but not my idea of how kids typically learn physical movement.
Agreed. It's been a while since I read the Talent Code but I thought more emphasis was placed on "deep practice". Also, IIRC, the whole 10,000 hours of practice was just merely a common trait shared by the great talent.
ZAP
New
Too many factors to predict at all. One person's "effort" can be very different from the next. Some people think a hard workout is when they break a sweat. For other people it is if they throw up. Then there is a third group for whom rhabdomyolysis is a good thing. (I hope I spelled that right)
birly-shirly
New
Sure. But it wouldn't be that controversial to suggest that the most effective physical training comes from the right balance of intensity, volume and rest. Putting figures on each of these variables is obviously tricky - but that doesn't mean that physical fitness is arbitrary or determined by natural talent. It's probably also true to say that most people, even regular exercisers, won't come close to pushing their optimal intensity levels on a regular, systematic basis.
I think that works OK as an analogy for sub-optimal golf practice.
I think that works OK as an analogy for sub-optimal golf practice.
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SteveT
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You got that right, Jared.... but that's how most adults attempt to learn the golfswing, like a child imitating what they see and attempting the whole 'gestalt' on the first try. That's how I attempted to learn the golfswing and it ended in failure after my initial futile attempts.
Then I started to read all the 'golf my way' books written by the revered ancients and the current champions. Nope, didn't work either because they all started to golf when they were infants. Then I discovered SPS, SLAP, L.A.W.s and pure scientific golfswing studies starting with Dr. David Williams ... and then my golfswing took off!!!
It wasn't all that simple either, because I had to convert my mid-life body from racket sports played at a decent level. I had to recondition my beautiful adult body and quizzical brainlet into a golfswing mode... conditioning, sport-specific training, massive solo practice on the range and course, and then testing everything under stressful competition against the course and the opponents.
I excelled at the short game from 170 yards in, struggled with the long irons and fairways... but I will never fully conquer the driver because my time has run out. In 10 years I developed a flexible game that resulted with scoring in the 80's on most courses, not only my home course. I knew how to manage the course and myself... even though I had more brains than talent.
Brian couldn't help me because he was into tgm when my game was peaking... and I categorically rejected tgm. Now Brian is on the right scientific path and I hope to share my scientific golf know-how with him and the intelligent forum members.
As for "imitate like children", that's so obvious even on this forum where guys try to glean their golfswing by slobbering over pics and vids ... like our late, great, Hogan Golf Swing Project tried to do unsuccessfully. I wonder if the children on this forum can tear themselves away from their pic-vid delusional obsessions and convert to Project 1.68 solutions. Gonna be interesting.....
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birly-shirly
New
Newsflash for you Steve.
Lots of golfers have done all the "wrong" things - read those books, and watched video, tried to make a whole swing, and maybe even analysed static swing sequences - and they shoot in the 80s just like you and me.
How they manage to do it without a superiority complex is beyond me.
BTW - when you say Brian couldn't help you, did you actually take a lesson? Or did your intellect forbid it? Out of curiosity - I don't see anything in your odyssey above about actually taking lessons. You didn't try to teach yourself, did you?
Lots of golfers have done all the "wrong" things - read those books, and watched video, tried to make a whole swing, and maybe even analysed static swing sequences - and they shoot in the 80s just like you and me.
How they manage to do it without a superiority complex is beyond me.
BTW - when you say Brian couldn't help you, did you actually take a lesson? Or did your intellect forbid it? Out of curiosity - I don't see anything in your odyssey above about actually taking lessons. You didn't try to teach yourself, did you?
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Monkey see, monkey do. Show a kid how to hit a golf ball, they'll watch you then copy. If it goes anywhere, they'll be stoked.
Show an adult how to do it, they'll ask 'but what should my right elbow be doing at half way down?' And if it doesn't go straight and 300yds they'll be pissed.
Maybe we need to find the same fortune telling machine that Tom Hanks did in 'Big'. The we can all be kids again
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SteveT
Guest
Why oh why don't you love and admire me ... what have I done to you personally that would cause your feeeelings to be so hurt or angry??!!!
I've admitted that I have more brains than talent at golf, but if you score in the 80's like I do, then you too are in the top 2% of all 50 million golfers worldwide. Not too shabby for starting rather late in life..... but if you want to consistently score in the high 70's and low 80's, you will be in the top 1%, which requires an exponential amount of practice and lessons for the likes of you and me. At some point you must gracefully stop, because of irreversible aging or life restraints. Intensively studying pics and vids and then trying to find your solution through mutual conversation and studying is somewhat ludicrous. You gotta dig it out of the dirt because there are no magic pills.
I'm no longer a striving golfer... I'm just a golffing forum expert now ...
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