Brian Manzella
Administrator
From 6B1D on Chuck Evans site
The DARK ages?
- Thread starter Brian Manzella
- Start date
- Status
FanofHogan
New
I hate to maybe open a can of worms here, but what is the PGA/Doyle fiasco? Inquiring minds want to know!
drewitgolf
New
I believe it was between Ben And Gary Wiren, then director of the education department for the PGA of America.
Turfspanker
New
This is interesting TGM lore and I know I don't have it quite right.
Ben mentioned to me that he and Homer met with Gary and Homer slid his book across the table and said "Here is your new instruction manual" (I'm paraphrasing). Gary had his top golf scientists review the book. I think Ben said there were 3 reviewers. Two of them agreed with Homer and one of them thought it was bunk.
Brian - can you clarify?
Turfspanker
Ben mentioned to me that he and Homer met with Gary and Homer slid his book across the table and said "Here is your new instruction manual" (I'm paraphrasing). Gary had his top golf scientists review the book. I think Ben said there were 3 reviewers. Two of them agreed with Homer and one of them thought it was bunk.
Brian - can you clarify?
Turfspanker
Brian Manzella
Administrator
I'll wait for 6beedee's explanation and then I'll give the WHOLE full story.
There already was much hostile between the PGA and TGM which at that time was represented by Ben Doyle. Ben had a less then stellar presentation to this audience. Ben spoke softly without a microphone, I was told, and angered many with laconic antagonistic answers to questions. But as it was reported to me, the audience wasn't going to let TGM fly at their convention.
Did Ben feel that his back was against the wall from the start in a no win situation? Ben has always been charming on the phone with me. The PGA had and still does have little respect for TGM. And you cannot blame many of them for this because TGM empowers the student which must run smack against the very foundation of commerce for the PGA - “keep them stupid but hopeful so they come back.”
My comment was to emphasize the re-birth of TGM with the internet lead by the forums of Evans and Manzella after the PGA rejection and decade of jibe offensive attacks on the work of Mr. Kelley's.
Did Ben feel that his back was against the wall from the start in a no win situation? Ben has always been charming on the phone with me. The PGA had and still does have little respect for TGM. And you cannot blame many of them for this because TGM empowers the student which must run smack against the very foundation of commerce for the PGA - “keep them stupid but hopeful so they come back.”
My comment was to emphasize the re-birth of TGM with the internet lead by the forums of Evans and Manzella after the PGA rejection and decade of jibe offensive attacks on the work of Mr. Kelley's.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
All Facts:
Ben Doyle and Homer Kelley presented The Golfing Machine to the PGA in 1973 in New Orleans. Gary Wiren CONVINCED the PGA that he could draft a 'simplified' version for the members so the PGA rejected making the book the "Teaching Manual". Gary was very complimentary to Homer and Ben about the system.
At the First PGA Teaching Summit (1988), I had been working with Ben for a year and a half and knew him pretty well by then. I drove him to his hotel every night after the days at the Summit.
Anyhow, Ben HAD A MIKE ON while he gave his one hour presentation. You could barely hear him. Now, I have played music since I was 3 years-old and you can turn a mike up loud enough to hear a cricket at 5000 yards. Ben asked them to TURN IT UP. The people in the audience asked them to TURN IT UP. They wouldn't or didn't have any IDEA of how to keep the feedback down (which I NEVER heard, BTW).
Ben got somewhat frustrated with people asking for it to be louder, but did a GREAT presentation.
He hit plastic balls into the audience as he demonstrated.
I SHOULD HAVE stopped the whole thing and fixed the damn PA myself, but I just waited until after to ask the techs what the hell happened. Before I could, they were asking Ben about the sale of the tape and Ben told me to tell them he DID NOT WANT IT put up for sale. Not because of the sound (Which was PERFECT on the tape) but because Ben wanted complete control over any tapes with him on it. So they agreed. (Lord only knows who got copies of the tape they were suppose to get rid of).
Anyway, both Gregg McHatton, GSED and Mike Hebron GSEM, gave very nice presentations atthe 1990 Summit in Nashville, so Ben HARDLY 'ruined it' for The Golfing Machine. They gave out 'rate the speaker' slips in Nashville and I saw some low scores for Gregg and Mike, which was total BS, because they did a great job.
At that Summit several things happened. #1 We had the ONLY Golfing Machine AI meeting EVER (It stunk) and #2 I statred the EVERY SUMMIT tradition of having world famous teachers buy me Diet Cokes and ask ME about the golf swing (In Nashville I was 28 years old).
Also this is where Ben stood up at the mike in the audience and asked Gary Wiren, "Is The Golfing Machine the truth?" Gary didn't answer of course.
This is 1990 now...not "The 80's."
At the next few Summits Ben, myself and MikeSTLOC, would all ask questions when it was time for 'questions from the audience.' I would ask a simple question they would miss 100% of the time, Mike would ask a question that they would answer like a 18-handicapper would 100% of the time and Ben would ask a question like: "What three things lead to a mastery level of golf." Instead of taking a shot an an answer like ALL OF YOU WOULD, these yahoos would ATTACK Ben.
I could go on for ever, 6, but trust me on this one: Don't listen to anyone else in golf when it comes to Ben. I know him the best by a landslide. Just ask right here in the forum. I'll even start a new thread: Ask Ben. I have him on speed dial and I am rooming with him at this years Summit, just like the last one, and the one before that...
Ben Doyle and Homer Kelley presented The Golfing Machine to the PGA in 1973 in New Orleans. Gary Wiren CONVINCED the PGA that he could draft a 'simplified' version for the members so the PGA rejected making the book the "Teaching Manual". Gary was very complimentary to Homer and Ben about the system.
At the First PGA Teaching Summit (1988), I had been working with Ben for a year and a half and knew him pretty well by then. I drove him to his hotel every night after the days at the Summit.
Anyhow, Ben HAD A MIKE ON while he gave his one hour presentation. You could barely hear him. Now, I have played music since I was 3 years-old and you can turn a mike up loud enough to hear a cricket at 5000 yards. Ben asked them to TURN IT UP. The people in the audience asked them to TURN IT UP. They wouldn't or didn't have any IDEA of how to keep the feedback down (which I NEVER heard, BTW).
Ben got somewhat frustrated with people asking for it to be louder, but did a GREAT presentation.
He hit plastic balls into the audience as he demonstrated.
I SHOULD HAVE stopped the whole thing and fixed the damn PA myself, but I just waited until after to ask the techs what the hell happened. Before I could, they were asking Ben about the sale of the tape and Ben told me to tell them he DID NOT WANT IT put up for sale. Not because of the sound (Which was PERFECT on the tape) but because Ben wanted complete control over any tapes with him on it. So they agreed. (Lord only knows who got copies of the tape they were suppose to get rid of).
Anyway, both Gregg McHatton, GSED and Mike Hebron GSEM, gave very nice presentations atthe 1990 Summit in Nashville, so Ben HARDLY 'ruined it' for The Golfing Machine. They gave out 'rate the speaker' slips in Nashville and I saw some low scores for Gregg and Mike, which was total BS, because they did a great job.
At that Summit several things happened. #1 We had the ONLY Golfing Machine AI meeting EVER (It stunk) and #2 I statred the EVERY SUMMIT tradition of having world famous teachers buy me Diet Cokes and ask ME about the golf swing (In Nashville I was 28 years old).
Also this is where Ben stood up at the mike in the audience and asked Gary Wiren, "Is The Golfing Machine the truth?" Gary didn't answer of course.
This is 1990 now...not "The 80's."
At the next few Summits Ben, myself and MikeSTLOC, would all ask questions when it was time for 'questions from the audience.' I would ask a simple question they would miss 100% of the time, Mike would ask a question that they would answer like a 18-handicapper would 100% of the time and Ben would ask a question like: "What three things lead to a mastery level of golf." Instead of taking a shot an an answer like ALL OF YOU WOULD, these yahoos would ATTACK Ben.
I could go on for ever, 6, but trust me on this one: Don't listen to anyone else in golf when it comes to Ben. I know him the best by a landslide. Just ask right here in the forum. I'll even start a new thread: Ask Ben. I have him on speed dial and I am rooming with him at this years Summit, just like the last one, and the one before that...
Brian Manzella
Administrator
No hostile audience at all.
Ben was thanked by dozens and dozens of greatful pros.
Ben was thanked by dozens and dozens of greatful pros.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
You are very welcome, Lynn.
I am sure Ben and I will have a great time at the Summit.
...and I'll have more stories to tell...
I am sure Ben and I will have a great time at the Summit.
...and I'll have more stories to tell...
I remember one Summit where Ben asked Jimmy Ballard to go to Impact Position... Jimmy did, with a vertical shaft, and Ben said, "go to Impact." Jimmy said, "I am." Ben then said for Jimmy to go to the Top... Ben asked Jimmy if the club was Open, Closed, or Square. Jimmy said it was Square, Ben said it was Closed. Jimmy started to get frustated, and that's all the questions Ben was allowed to ask.
Ryan Smither
Super Moderator
i love these stories...keep 'em coming
Unless the presentation was about the things that specifically lead to a mastery level of golf, then...for a Q&A after listening to a speech, I think that this is not an acceptable question to ask. It looks like the "asker" has an agenda—looking for a forum to express their own opinion.
That doesn't make the asker a bad person, just bad behavior.
birdie_man
New
I don't think that's an astute observation at all.
What's so bad about that? 3 things that lead to a mastery level of golf....
He could have said "Interesting question." And at least given an opinion on what he thought.
I mean, it's prolly not a question where you could ring off an answer off on the top of your head...and I'm sure there are gonna be different opinons on it....but a top instructor- someone who should ACTUALLY be on the stage at an event like the Teaching Summit- should be able to give some kind of opinion on this.
I think if this instructor was a true, great instructor, he would be curious and intrigued about this question...he would consider the answer rather than be threatened by the question.
This question could make for an interesting discussion, don't you think?
What's so bad about that? 3 things that lead to a mastery level of golf....
He could have said "Interesting question." And at least given an opinion on what he thought.
I mean, it's prolly not a question where you could ring off an answer off on the top of your head...and I'm sure there are gonna be different opinons on it....but a top instructor- someone who should ACTUALLY be on the stage at an event like the Teaching Summit- should be able to give some kind of opinion on this.
I think if this instructor was a true, great instructor, he would be curious and intrigued about this question...he would consider the answer rather than be threatened by the question.
This question could make for an interesting discussion, don't you think?
metallion
New
True
Anyone unsecure of his ability as a problem-solver (which would be a imperative for a great instructor) would feel that he's being quizzed on his knowledge. He'd be likely to just stare at the person questioning like he landed from Mars. You'd have to coach that person to come up with an answer.
Anyone secure about his problem-solver ability would enthusiastically leap into trying to figure out some back-of-the-envelope reply.
Regardless if the question being about "characteristics of master level golf" or "how the color of tee markers can affect your lag putting".
- Status