The Ghost of TC Chen

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Richie3Jack

Richie3Jack

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I never understood the entire TC Chen phenomenon.

To me it was like 'big deal, he accidentally double chipped it out of a bad lie.'

But they absolutely skewered him for it, like it was the worst shot ever and the golf media still remembers it like it was the biggest screwup in golf history.






3JACK
 
mgranato

mgranato

New
Brian Manzella said:
From 1985 until 1997 when Tiger really became Tiger, the EUROs won some because the US players were soft from making easy money on the US Tour where nobody ruffled any feathers.

From 1997-2001/2ish, Tiger RUINED a generation of top players by kicking their asses.

So, the guys who became good tour players since the Tiger Slam have NOT been soft, or KNOCKED DOWN a notch.

These are the guys who will get the cup back and keep it.

I would bet on it.
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Playing devil's advocate, I'm not sure I agree with that assessment.

I would argue that since the Tiger Slam, it's been easier to make staggering amounts of money without having to actually win anything of note.

The Tiger Slam ended the careers of some of the older hanger-ons, inspired some of the younger hope-to-bees, and gave a wake up call to his closest rivals. Vijay and Phil have had much better careers during Tiger's dominance than before it.

Regardless, I think the biggest obstacle for getting the Cup back and keeping it is the other team. I don't see the same sack on the younger US players as I do the Euro's. I think I would take McIlroy, Mcdowell, E. Molinari, Kaymer, and Poulter over Fowler, Kuchar, D. Johnson, Watson, and Overton. Lets not forget that two of the best players in the world were left off their team - Rose and Casey. I think, at best, we're looking at a home and home for future wins. The Euro team has proven they can win here, now we have to prove we can win there.

25 years of Euro dominance pretty much covers the life span of the younger guys on these teams. You see it all the time in other sports - when a program gets used to losing, the mentality usually lasts a while. I don't think the 10 year ago Tiger Slam will be all that significant to guys who were in high school/college then. The future of the US team is in the hands of generation who is used to losing far more than they win - something more current needs to be done to change that.

I think the President's Cup has actually hurt us in the Ryder Cup. I like us playing every other year rather than every year.
 
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savydan

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I think it's the format that will give the Euros a slight advantage if talent is fairly close.

They naturally have teams with teams, much like the Azinger pods: the Irishmen, the Brits, the Spaniards (esp. recent past), the Italians, all having natural and maximum comfort with each other to come together to beat the Americans.

18-hole matches are actually short competitions - like playing 2 innings of baseball.

There's more momentum, chemistry's more important, and flat out wanting to beat the big, bad, USA.

If the Ryder Cup was 72-holes stroke play, or at least just 18-hole singles play, less Euro advantage, maybe even US. But 28 little matches within one event, slight Euro advantage - again, talent being fairly equal.
 
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Hayes9801

New
mgranato said:
Who would you like in the fox hole? Of the players who have been US veterans (at least 3 Cups)...

Love - losing record
Toms - losing record
Leonard - losing record
Cink - losing record
Furyk - losing record
Woods - losing record
Mickelson - losing record

Correct, Mickelson has 17 loses (2.125 loses per Cup). He has also played in 8 Cups - more than any other from his era.

Tiger has 14 loses (2.33 loses per Cup). He's played in 2 less Cups than Mickelson, but has a higher losing percentage while playing with better players.

Furyk has 15 loses (2.14 loses per Cup). He's played in 7 Cups.

If you want to point the finger at Mickelson, you also have to point the finger at the other veterans - especially Furyk and Woods. The reality is both of them are on track to accumulate the same or more loses than Mickelson over the same amount of Cups.

I also find it a bit inconsistent to have a go at Mickelson for being different off camera when his team mate is the poster child for living, selling, and portraying a true double life - and has just as bad a Cup record as Mickelson.

If those are your requirements for a fox hole mate, you may be looking on the team.
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Unlike with Mickelson, nobody is talking about what great leaders these other players are or were. In fact, Tiger has been pointedly criticized because he has NOT been a leader. Real team leaders inspire with their play and determination, and and they make the players around them better. I'll gladly retract my comments when Mickelson starts doing that.
 
mgranato

mgranato

New
I gottcha. So in your estimation, Mickelson does not play inspired or determined, nor has he helped any of those rookies play better? And regardless of what he does off the course, what defines a leader is inspiration, determination, and making other players shoot lower scores?

Again, by that definition, you have eliminated everyone of the US verteran players as leaders. The teams have stunk, they all have losing records, and the three most experienced players lose at the same clip. I'm just trying to learn why only one seems to get the "phony-not-a-leader" label.

Often times, the leader of the team is NOT the best player on the team. Star and leader are not synonimus.
 
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Hayes9801

New
mgranato said:
I gottcha. So in your estimation, Mickelson does not play inspired or determined, nor has he helped any of those rookies play better? And regardless of what he does off the course, what defines a leader is inspiration, determination, and making other players shoot lower scores?

Again, by that definition, you have eliminated everyone of the US verteran players as leaders. The teams have stunk, they all have losing records, and the three most experienced players lose at the same clip. I'm just trying to learn why only one seems to get the "phony-not-a-leader" label.

Often times, the leader of the team is NOT the best player on the team. Star and leader are not synonimus.
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This year Phil is the only person on the team being lauded for his leadership, so he's the only one I'm discussing. If you find someone who thinks that one of the other players you mentioned has been a leader, I'll dispute that, too.

For roughly the past 25 years the U.S. may not have had a player whose name is synonymous with leader. You tell me
 
Richie3Jack

Richie3Jack

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Golf is a funny game because a temperment for one golfer may be disastrous for another. I shudder to think if you were to force say Dottie Pepper's personality into Michelle Wie's personality.

I think Phil showed leadership in the press conference. Leaders take the blame. As I was once told by a great baseball coach of mine 'when you're the leader, even if it's not your fault...it's still your fault.'

I think the big issue the Americans face in the RC is the alternate shot format, seems like they get beat there pretty badly every year, even when the win the RC.

To me, the American captains continually make the same mistake of:

1) Pairing players who are friends instead of pairing players who are compatible skill wise.

2) Picking experience over youth when usually that experience is just a poor RC player getting another chance to play poor again.

I think Azinger did a good job of avoiding those 2 pitfalls...and they in large part won because of it.

But if I'm the next RC captain for the US, I do everything I can to examine why the Euros dominate alternate shot. That's probably my first order of business.






3JACK
 
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aaron_lohan

New
Brian Manzella said:
From 1985 until 1997 when Tiger really became Tiger, the EUROs won some because the US players were soft from making easy money on the US Tour where nobody ruffled any feathers.

From 1997-2001/2ish, Tiger RUINED a generation of top players by kicking their asses.

So, the guys who became good tour players since the Tiger Slam have NOT been soft, or KNOCKED DOWN a notch.

These are the guys who will get the cup back and keep it.

I would bet on it.
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I can't see it, the depth of talent in Europe is greater than ever and will only ever get greater as the game gets more popular in Europe. The depth of talent and the superstars being produced by the US is declining and will continue to decline, more college places will go to foreign golfers, the US will have to get used to being the underdog for some time yet.
 
mgranato

mgranato

New
Hayes9801 said:
This year Phil is the only person on the team being lauded for his leadership, so he's the only one I'm discussing. If you find someone who thinks that one of the other players you mentioned has been a leader, I'll dispute that, too.

For roughly the past 25 years the U.S. may not have had a player whose name is synonymous with leader. You tell me
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Apologies…
I heard Mickelson, Furyk, Cink, and Woods all accused of being leaders by the various outlets on this past go around. I was on a golfing trip during the Cup, so I didn’t get to see much live action. I did get to see the presser after the singles. From what I saw there, I would have to agree that Cink, Furyk, and Mickelson carried the weight of leaders. Play wise, it’s always nice when your leaders actually lead you to victory, but I still think leaders are leaders when they or the rest of the team just don’t have it.

On a much more important note, where in ATL do you mostly play? I’m on the north side of town.
 
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SJO

New
Brian Manzella said:
From 1985 until 1997 when Tiger really became Tiger, the EUROs won some because the US players were soft from making easy money on the US Tour where nobody ruffled any feathers.

From 1997-2001/2ish, Tiger RUINED a generation of top players by kicking their asses.

So, the guys who became good tour players since the Tiger Slam have NOT been soft, or KNOCKED DOWN a notch.

These are the guys who will get the cup back and keep it.

I would bet on it.
Click to expand...

I disagree. How are the players less soft now? They make 10 times the money and this was the first Ryder Cup with 2 players that haven't won a tournament. The American youngsters look like great players but they definitely don't look hungry to me....except maybe Fowler. Also I don't think they are better than the Europeans anyway, not good enough to 'keep' the Cup at least.
 
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Jared Willerson

Super Moderator
Hayes9801 said:
Unlike with Mickelson, nobody is talking about what great leaders these other players are or were. In fact, Tiger has been pointedly criticized because he has NOT been a leader. Real team leaders inspire with their play and determination, and and they make the players around them better. I'll gladly retract my comments when Mickelson starts doing that.
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The point is Mickelson HAS done that....he is the man in the team room all his teammates love the hell out of him. Woods does not even GO to the team room except for the ping pong tournament, he wasn't missed at Valhalla and is nothing but a distraction when he is around.

You have it backwards my friend.

Mickelson gets a bad rap in the media, because the media themselves are a bunch of smartasses and can't take it when someone is a smartass back. Tell your friends in the media to get over themselves.
 
birdie_man

birdie_man

New
Brian Manzella said:
From 1985 until 1997 when Tiger really became Tiger, the EUROs won some because the US players were soft from making easy money on the US Tour where nobody ruffled any feathers.

From 1997-2001/2ish, Tiger RUINED a generation of top players by kicking their asses.

So, the guys who became good tour players since the Tiger Slam have NOT been soft, or KNOCKED DOWN a notch.

These are the guys who will get the cup back and keep it.

I would bet on it.
Click to expand...

Not bad Brian. (really)
 
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rogerdodger

New
Back to the original observation, the short chip/pitch from a tight fairway lie or from rough as in TC Chen is the most pressure filled shot in golf. Why ?, it is the most embarassing to the golfer. When a playing partner lays sod with extra chili, it is hard not to laugh, kind of like walking by the graveyard. I remember a club championship I played in ten years ago when I was playing a lot. Birdied one, parred two, came to three, a long uphill par five and was left of the green in three when Hormel opened its can and I left in eight strokes. In 1991, Hale Irwin had a one stroke lead over Langer and had a short chip on 18 that he did not get halfway to the hole he fatted it so bad. This guy won three US Opens. No shot exposes the nerves like this one. I guarantee Mahan's last thought was not to chunk it.
 
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mb6606

New
USGA / PGA

The USGA / PGA should be embarrased. A team from the Island of Great Britain McIlroy, Mcdowell, Westwood, Rose, Casey. Poulter, Donald, Fisher, Brian Davis, Clarke and Monty would beat us. We have more golfers, more courses, far better weather, better athletes and more competition. What is the excuse????
 
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aaron_lohan

New
mb6606 said:
The USGA / PGA should be embarrased. A team from the Island of Great Britain McIlroy, Mcdowell, Westwood, Rose, Casey. Poulter, Donald, Fisher, Brian Davis, Clarke and Monty would beat us. We have more golfers, more courses, far better weather, better athletes and more competition. What is the excuse????
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Better athletes than Europe combined??
 
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