The law of reversed effort

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A golfer striving to swing like a machine has to learn to control each and every element of his swing. This can easily lead to over-control and requiring continuous tuning of his complex “machinery”. :(

However simply giving up all control and swinging the club almost only with the little finger of the lead hand, simply pulling on the grip end, the down swing is primarily controlled by the inertial forces. :eek:

Hence the case can be made that by giving up all control we don’t create some wishy-washy swing but, paradoxically, a swing a close as possible to a machine-like-swing as a golfer can possibly produce. :cool:
 
A golfer striving to swing like a machine has to learn to control each and every element of his swing. This can easily lead to over-control and requiring continuous tuning of his complex “machinery”. :(

However simply giving up all control and swinging the club almost only with the little finger of the lead hand, simply pulling on the grip end, the down swing is primarily controlled by the inertial forces. :eek:

Hence the case can be made that by giving up all control we don’t create some wishy-washy swing but, paradoxically, a swing a close as possible to a machine-like-swing as a golfer can possibly produce. :cool:

If starting the club down like your pulling a lavatory chain is somehow a revelation and all the golfer has to think about - there would be no PGA tour. Whilst this swing thought is not without validity its not exactly a 'theory of everything'.
 
Large Hadron Collider Zen/Cern non-interference Swing drills

Does 65,7% of the golfing population gain more from the non-interference longitudinal motion drills, such as

- four-finger grip with feet together /on one leg

- than working on applying force across the shaft (basic/acquired) motion?

- or perhaps four-finger grip with sudden vertical DS into the ground motion?

Do not trust your teacher, 3D machine or individual tinkering anymore...it´s time for real golf research...

A large Randomised Controlled multinational double-blind Trial with 20 years of follow-up is needed...endpoints are total happiness and mortality...

-since 19XX, in the Medical Business, "we simply don´t know" for 20 years until results from well made RCT:s are ready...

-but our golfing days are few and perhaps it´d be a lot less fun really knowing...
 
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JRJ

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Hence the case can be made that by giving up all control we don’t create some wishy-washy swing but, paradoxically, a swing a close as possible to a machine-like-swing as a golfer can possibly produce. :cool:

You gotta try hard not to try hard; give up control to get control

Without question golf is a paradox
 
long hitters vs. short hitters

Mandrin, this could possibly be a question for another thread but I will ask it anyway.
In a general sense, can you tell me what seperates the longer hitters from the shorter hitters on the PGA Tour? Is it that the shorter hitters are putting a force on the shaft that is preventing it from swinging as fast as it possibly could or are they just not capable of putting enough force into the shaft?
 
In executing you certainly want a "whole motion".....ideally you don't want to think of anything at all, I'm sure.

I am not so sure it works all the time in learning though. At least by itself.

Brian is the guy to weigh in on this, no doubt.
 
Mandrin, this could possibly be a question for another thread but I will ask it anyway.
In a general sense, can you tell me what seperates the longer hitters from the shorter hitters on the PGA Tour? Is it that the shorter hitters are putting a force on the shaft that is preventing it from swinging as fast as it possibly could or are they just not capable of putting enough force into the shaft?
libro,

I really can’t answer that question as each golfer is unique. It really is a very open ended question. In science that means having too many variables to cope with to do anything of specific value. But I can just mention some generalities.

I am not sure if your question is specifically about hitters as opposed to including swingers. Hitting and swinging as far as the club is concerned is not all that different. The linear force exerted on the shaft, either by pushing, pulling, or both, results in a torque exerted on the shaft.

As far as the golfer is concerned it is another matter - it feels very different indeed. Swinging is ample, fluid and better suited for the small tender person. Hitting suits more the aggressive dominating type person especially when built stocky.

A golfer is an ensemble of masses and muscles. A swinger lets the masses play a more important role via the kinetic chain. A hitter is relying more on the action of muscular force. However nothing is white or black in golf but usually an in-between situation.

I am inclined to think that each golfer has an unique swing which fits him best. Not necessarily textbook, perhaps ugly looking but functional. That unique swing is the one which allows him to generate hopefully a near optimum combination of club head speed AND accurate repeatable impact conditions.
 
Mandrin,
I should have explained myself better. I wasn't talking about "hitters" and "swingers" as they are referred to in TGM. Typically, most of the players on tour that don't hit it very far are however very accurate. Are they giving up some of the "free wheeling" though the ball and have become more accurate players at the expense of less distance? In a sense, I guess what I am saying is are they guiding the shot more than they should and not "free wheeling" enough, even though they could possibly gain control by giving up control?
 
A golfer striving to swing like a machine has to learn to control each and every element of his swing. This can easily lead to over-control and requiring continuous tuning of his complex “machinery”. :(

However simply giving up all control and swinging the club almost only with the little finger of the lead hand, simply pulling on the grip end, the down swing is primarily controlled by the inertial forces. :eek:

Hence the case can be made that by giving up all control we don’t create some wishy-washy swing but, paradoxically, a swing a close as possible to a machine-like-swing as a golfer can possibly produce. :cool:

for someone so into science its odd to see you call this a "law". there are no "laws" of the golf swing. the golf swing is a completely man made action. its not of nature and is not defined by observable "laws".
 
for someone so into science its odd to see you call this a "law".
thefuture37,

The 'law of reversed effort' is an essential part of oriental wisdom and its origin lie with Lao Tzu, father of Taoism.

Law of the Reversed Effort

The Law which sees to it that
When you try to stay afloat, you sink;
When you try to sink, you float;
When you hold your breath, you lose it.
Those who justify themselves, do not convince.

It is in the letting go,
that we are enabled to receive;
In the stillness, that we can participate;
In the silence, hear;
and, out of the dark night, see.

Lao Tzu


LaoGod.jpg

You might also check with well known authors such as Alan Watts or Aldous Huxley, or check the Bible for that matter and you will find the same kind of ideas.

there are no "laws" of the golf swing. the golf swing is a completely man made action. its not of nature and is not defined by observable "laws".

You are wrong. A golfer is truly part of nature and there are hence definitely laws governing man and his a golf swing.

If I let you drop from a building I can predict precisely when you hit the pavement using the laws of physics.

When you swing the club your are generating and are subject to muscular forces, gravitational forces and inertial forces, such as centripetal and centrifugal forces.

When you produce a golf swing you subject the structural makeup of your body to rather high stress levels just like it occurs in a golf robot machine.

If you are a TGMer, let me just cite Homer Kelley -

“All the laws operating in a golf stroke – Force and Motion, Geometry and Trigonometry, Materials and Structure, etc., etc., have been known since the days of Isaac Newton......”
 
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mandrin,
I should have explained myself better. I wasn't talking about "hitters" and "swingers" as they are referred to in TGM. Typically, most of the players on tour that don't hit it very far are however very accurate. Are they giving up some of the "free wheeling" though the ball and have become more accurate players at the expense of less distance? In a sense, I guess what I am saying is are they guiding the shot more than they should and not "free wheeling" enough, even though they could possibly gain control by giving up control?
libro,

I really feel that I can't answer that question as it is a very personal matter, unique for each golfer, and I am not a pro making his existence on the tour. Why not ask Tom, he has been closer to the fire and has a more inside knowledge. However I will give my intuitive opinion in a general sense.

Your question is really that of balancing power versus accuracy.

A golf swing consists, grosso modo, of two swings, each around its specific axis - “vertical” with body and “horizontal “ with arms, relative to body. The two have to be synchronized to obtain both accurate impact conditions and reasonable impact velocity. Tiger, swinging too aggressive, spins too fast with this hips and get is arms stuck behind. An amateur often rotates his upper body too fast relative to his arms swing, resulting in an out to in swing.

I see the moment of truth to be not impact but the transition. If you can just master somehow to have as the first move at least a small vertical motion of hands than you are on your way to be able to be very aggressive and not loose adequate impact conditions. Swinging away from the target at the transition is likely one of the best ways to succeed in doing so.

Another big factor is when golfers use their hands actively, such as to rotate aggressively through impact independent from and additionally to the rotation due to the natural swing motion. Using a swing with no active hand action is definitely an advantage for developing an aggressive swing, still remaining accurate and repeatable.

This leads to the obvious conclusion – often mentioned by TV commentators – i.e., a compact golf swing with the least amount of moving parts will be more likely to keep its accuracy when one is going full out.

You probably will find many more voices to claim that one should be swinging a bit less than maximum to maintain adequate accuracy than suggesting going full out with the golf swing, such as put forward by Ben Hogan who had a very definite opinion on the subject -

“Don't be afraid of swinging too hard. Many golfers are, you know. They figure that unless they retain their power, they'll magnify their errors. I see it just the other way. If you are working with muscles that are fully extended swing after swing, there has to be more uniformity than if your muscles are flexed with varying degrees of tension and so “give” differently on one swing and another. I feel, and have proved to myself, that I can hit a ball straighter if I hit it hard and full.”
 

Tom Bartlett

Administrator
Mandrin,
I should have explained myself better. I wasn't talking about "hitters" and "swingers" as they are referred to in TGM. Typically, most of the players on tour that don't hit it very far are however very accurate. Are they giving up some of the "free wheeling" though the ball and have become more accurate players at the expense of less distance? In a sense, I guess what I am saying is are they guiding the shot more than they should and not "free wheeling" enough, even though they could possibly gain control by giving up control?

It could be that they can't swing the club any faster for whatever reason...flexibility, strength, size etc. In which case they are more accurate off the tee because of there lack of distance. If golfer A and golfer B both swing the club head on a line towards the target and both have the club face open the same amount, the one with the slower club head speed will be closer to the target line in other words hit more fairways.

Now if you put them both in the fairway 175 yards from the green who will hit it closer? Here's where it gets tricky.

You will notice in the PGA Tour stats your shorter hitters are indeed, for the most part more accurate off the tee. There are some who are straight and hit it long (now you are talking about great ball strikers). Guys who have ultimate control of their swings- Greg Norman, Bruce Lietzke, Arnold Palmer, etc, If you look at the PGA Tour stats for GIRs... long hitters, for the most part lead that stat. I know there are some short hitters there but remember also they are in the fairway while the longer hitter is in the rough or worse.

Longer hitters are going to win the contest from 175 yards out in the fairway. Why, because they are hitting say a 7 iron while the short hitter is hitting a 5 or 4 iron. The reason...the D plane

Shorter hitter off the tee has greater margin of error while longer hitter in the fairway has the greater margin of error.

Now, can those shorter hitters ramp it up and get more distance. In my opinion I don't think so. They got to the level they are at swinging the way they do and trying to rev it up would probably change their swing too much to stay at that level. They would almost have to learn to play all over again. I also believe that short "straight" hitters are a dying breed, because kids learning the game are trying to murder the ball. These murderers are learning to control the club face while killing it and will put the puffers out of business, because they have such an advantage with more lofted clubs into the green. Hope I explained that well.
 
Law of the Reversed Effort

The Law which sees to it that
When you try to stay afloat, you sink;
When you try to sink, you float;
When you hold your breath, you lose it.
Those who justify themselves, do not convince.

It is in the letting go,
that we are enabled to receive;
In the stillness, that we can participate;
In the silence, hear;
and, out of the dark night, see.

Lao Tzu

Nothing like reading some cutting edge stuff.
 
D-Plane

Doubled,

I believe the answer is "cut angle." As Tom stated, the guy hitting the 7 iron will be more accurate and hit more greens than a guy using a 4 iron from the same distance, as a rule. Think about it, which do you hit straighter a pw or a 3 iron? This is due to "cut angle."
 
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