The mystery and wonders of the left wrist during downswing

[tongzilla]

Just about every really good swinger of the club moves the wrist TOWARD arched in the start down, TOWARD bent toward the end of the 1st phase of the downswing, TOWARD ARCHED pre-impact, THEN RAPIDLY TOWARD BENT through impact!

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moves the wrist TOWARD arched in the start down

ok...I can see and feel that.

THEN RAPIDLY TOWARD BENT through impact!

ok...I can see and feel that.

TOWARD bent toward the end of the 1st phase of the downswing, TOWARD ARCHED pre-impact

This is the most mysterious and hard to understand part for me. Seems like this would be impossible to do with any conscious effort, unlike rapidly bending left wrist through impact which I feel like I can control pretty well if I wanted to.

 

[spktho]

"Toward bent toward the end of the 1st phase of the downswing"

I'm thinking this is maybe responsible for the increase of lag. It is difficult to radial deviate very much with the left wrist, so to add more wrist "cock", extension(Brian's "bent") is utilized.

I'm with you on the conscious effort for some of these. Seems like not enough time during the downswing for the conscious effort.

 

[art]

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ok...I can see and feel that.

ok...I can see and feel that.

This is the most mysterious and hard to understand part for me. Seems like this would be impossible to do with any conscious effort, unlike rapidly bending left wrist through impact which I feel like I can control pretty well if I wanted to.

Dear tongzilla,

The 17 page AMM/TPI 3D, 6DOF report for each swing produces many 'graphs' of the major elements of the body, pelvis, torso, lead arm, club AND a series of graphs regarding the movement of the wrists in a section called "Wrist Link Interactions".

For the Lead and Trail wrists, relative to their anatomical reference systems are 'curves' of angle versus time for Ulna-Radial deviation, Flexion-Extension and Pronation Supination.

So tongzilla, even after many years of study, this area is ALSO very hard for me to understand. However, recognizing this is a high quality site in search of 'golf truth', I would like to offer at least a science-based opinion about the angular movements of the wrists ESPECIALLY during the explosive downswing.

First, I must admit that from my knowledge of the AMM/TPI sysyem, including the software, that I TRULY BELIEVE that the rapid angular changes in both wrists in 3 axes are REAL in both position and the high rate which they change. HOWEVER, while experience strongly indicates that some is 'created' on purpose by the torques defined in Dr. Steve Nesbit's work, IMO, some are 'involuntary' angular changes that are the result (cause/effect) of the dynamics of especially the arms and shoulder complexes.

As a crude example, just imagine what would happen to the flexion-extension characteristics of both wrists if the lead arm was artificially slowed down at various locations during the down swing ???

So my admittedly unproven attempt to better understand this lead wrist angular activity during the downswing is that WHAT IS RECORDED is the result of both voluntary and purposeful timed torques AND involuntary 'reactions' from more distal elements feeding energy to and through the wrists to the hands/club/grip.

Would love some feedback.

Sincerely,
art

 

[Brian Manzella]

 

[Mike O]

Graph

If I read the chart correctly - then this golfer has 26 degrees of left wrist radial deviation at the top of the swing. Just about 1/2 way through the downswing the golfer has obtained a little more left wrist radial deviation. At the top the golfer has a left wrist that is pronated a little over 13 degrees from neutral and then that left wrist continues to pronate through just about 2/3rds of the downswing until it begins to supinate. Meanwhile the left wrist has just shy of 13 degrees of extension towards the top from neutral and flexes all the way down until just before impact. Of the four time intervals/phases that divide the downswing from the top - the graph shows that the left wrist slows it's rate of flexing during the 2nd phase relative to the 1st and 3rd phases of the downsing. While the flexion/extension line and the radial/ulnar deviation lines appear to record their movement into the follow through - the supination/pronation line is only relevant to impact - as it's straight vertical line would be an error in the reading.

 

[Brian Manzella]

The sup-pro line is going off the chart high.....it keeps going up until it gets to 100°!

 

[niblick1]

Brian-

That graphic answered a dozen questions I had about downswing movements. Spectacular. Thanks for posting.

Now I've got to figure out why I have so much less downswing flexion than optimal.

 

[Brian Manzella]

<iframe src="http://player.vimeo.com/video/28263441?autoplay=1&api=1" width="400" height="300" frameborder="0" webkitAllowFullScreen mozallowfullscreen allowFullScreen></iframe>

 

[Mike O]

Graph

I also note that while the left wrist is in an extended condition at the top, as it flexes during the downswing until it reaches a condition of neutral approximately halfway between .125 and .188 where for now I'll assume that''s flat. Then this golfer's left wrist continues to continues to flex and therefore now begins to move into a flexed condition (arched). Before impact when the shaft is parallel to the ground the golfer's left wrist begins to extend and it reaches a neutral (I'll assume flat) at impact.

Just about every really good swinger of the club moves the wrist TOWARD arched in the start down, TOWARD bent toward the end of the 1st phase of the downswing, TOWARD ARCHED pre-impact, THEN RAPIDLY TOWARD BENT through impact!

I read the graph as towards arched from the top until the shaft is parallel to the ground for this golfer, while actually moving from a bent left wrist to an arched left wrist condition then towards bent from there through impact, while reaching a flat condition at impact and a bent condition right after impact. I'm thinking on 2nd review that's how you'll see it however maybe I'm missing something.

 

[Brian Manzella]

I also note that while the left wrist is in an extended condition at the top, as it flexes during the downswing until it reaches a condition of neutral approximately halfway between .125 and .188 where for now I'll assume that''s flat. Then this golfer's left wrist continues to continues to flex and therefore now begins to move into a flexed condition (arched). Before impact when the shaft is parallel to the ground the golfer's left wrist begins to extend and it reaches a neutral (I'll assume flat) at impact.





I read the graph as towards arched from the top until the shaft is parallel to the ground for this golfer, while actually moving from a bent left wrist to an arched left wrist condition then towards bent from there through impact, while reaching a flat condition at impact and a bent condition right after impact. I'm thinking on 2nd review that's how you'll see it however maybe I'm missing something.

The golfer I posted does not do the double-bend as much as some other golfers I've seen.


Here is a good way to look at WHY most have the "bump" in their graphs....


As the body starts turning from the top, it moves the wrist toward arched, as the golfer goes outward the left wrist bends, and then it arches pre-impact and then bends back rapidly.

This golfer's grip is more neutral than most, so that effects the graphs.

He passes through FLAT between the black and red "golfers."

 

[Mike O]

The golfer I posted does not do the double-bend as much as some other golfers I've seen.


Here is a good way to look at WHY most have the "bump" in their graphs....


As the body starts turning from the top, it moves the wrist toward arched, as the golfer goes outward the left wrist bends, and then it arches pre-impact and then bends back rapidly.

This golfer's grip is more neutral than most, so that effects the graphs.

He passes through FLAT between the black and red "golfers."

There is no moving towards bending i.e. extension with the left wrist in this graph until after the green golfer. As long as the line is elevating - the left wrist is moving towards flexion i.e. arching, regardless of the actual wrist condition.

 

[Brian Manzella]

There is no moving towards bending i.e. extension with the left wrist in this graph until after the green golfer. As long as the line is elevating - the left wrist is moving towards flexion i.e. arching, regardless of the actual wrist condition.

I know that Mike!

Like I was saying, this golfer doesn't do it.

But, almost every other graph I have seen does.

Why not this guy? Weaker grip.

Now....see the little mini-bump this guy has around .125....that is where most go backward toward bent.

 

[mjstrong]

It seems to me that it'd be easier to "pull" down on the club (while the club is perpendicular to the ground) with a bent-ish left wrist...and then seems easier to "push" (FATS?) on the club with an arching left wrist.

Left wrist bending in Phase I, Arching in Phase II, and bending in Phase III.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Good job mj!

But Almost always Arching in the Transition!

 

[mjstrong]

Without the initial gamma torque (=arching in the transition, in my eyes), you'd be in an even more face-open/wrist-cupped position after phase I, and it's probably tougher to get the club face back to square at impact in such little time/space.

Just my thoughts.

 

[dschultz6072]

Old thread, I know. I was interested in the radial and ulnar deviation graphs. Is this saying from the top the player goes from 26 degrees of radial deviation to 26 ulnar deviation at impact, then a little further into ulnar deviation, then back to neutral and possibly beyond? Or do I have it backwards? Just curious. Thank you!

 

[Wgolf131]

Bmanz,
Quick question . I don't think I was doing the Spiderman on the wall correctly as I have injured my wrist and left hand really bad. Is there a better way for me to learn the move or just play as I was and not try to do the move to and through the ball.

During our lessons over the years the wrist move was never anything you ever mentioned to me I just was trying it through watch all the info. What you spoke to me about was always my pivot action and getting the proper turn.

Never the wrist action as I think about it I shouldn't have ever started messing with trying to get the wrist action as the lessons we have had that's never been our source of idea's to improve my swing . Dang !

V/r
wgolf

 

[Brian Manzella]

You shouldn't have to try to go "spiderman" unless you were over-rolling.