The Out Toss - questions and a new feature article by Brian Manzella

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puttmaster

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While doing drills yesterday at the range -- primarily focused on keeping my back to the target longer -- I eventually added the out toss to the transition/downswing.

After sticking it in the ground the first few times, I began to get the proper feel of "shoot the basketball" and "pull the shaft out of the ground." My shots instantly had more compression and distance -- AND significantly higher ball flight. I was hitting (straight) towering shots with my 8-iron. Switched to my 6-iron, same thing. It was a GREAT feeling at impact, but I couldn't believe the height -- which actually could be a plus on the small, elevated greens at my home course.

Since I was getting slightly above average distance AND the much higher ball flight, is that a sign that I'm on the right track but not getting enough forward lean and the clubhead is passing the left arm just a fraction too soon (adding loft)? If so, how do I work that in along with the out toss? TIA...
 
mgranato

mgranato

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As long as you can bring it down when needed, I love a high ball flight. I never really appreciated it until I went to my first PGA Tour event.
 
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puttmaster

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mgranato said:
As long as you can bring it down when needed, I love a high ball flight. I never really appreciated it until I went to my first PGA Tour event.
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I agree. As a normally low-mid flight player, it was just a shocker for me to see the towering ball flight. I'm glad I found this yesterday; should make today's iron clubfitting session all the more interesting. :)
 
trashpar

trashpar

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puttmaster said:
While doing drills yesterday at the range -- primarily focused on keeping my back to the target longer -- I eventually added the out toss to the transition/downswing.

After sticking it in the ground the first few times, I began to get the proper feel of "shoot the basketball" and "pull the shaft out of the ground." My shots instantly had more compression and distance -- AND significantly higher ball flight. I was hitting (straight) towering shots with my 8-iron. Switched to my 6-iron, same thing. It was a GREAT feeling at impact, but I couldn't believe the height -- which actually could be a plus on the small, elevated greens at my home course.

Since I was getting slightly above average distance AND the much higher ball flight, is that a sign that I'm on the right track but not getting enough forward lean and the clubhead is passing the left arm just a fraction too soon (adding loft)? If so, how do I work that in along with the out toss? TIA...
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I pretty much had the same experience Thursday.
 
B

Brian Manzella

Administrator
The Out-Toss: The Golfer's Feel for the First Move Down

headSMALL.jpg
by Brian Manzella


Perhaps no movement in the golf swing confounds players of all abilities as much as the first move down. There is body movement and arm movement involved and even the suggestion that one starts before the other can spark a spirited debate. In my 30 years of teaching, I have seen and taught almost every conceivable "first move down." And while most of my "on the tee" first-move-down instruction deals with the body, almost every golfer at some point in time will need to at least feel what the arms, hands, and club do on their start toward impact. Of all the hundreds of ideas I have suggested as a feel from the top, none have caused as much consternation as "The Out-Toss." I am going to show that there is an out-toss in every swing, and if you can find the right feel for you, your ball-striking will almost undoubtably improve.

Below is a picture of what I feel is the three major types of first move down "out toss.'

outtosses.jpg



The pictures of Ben Hogan were taken from his slow motion swing near the end of his "mini lesson" done at the conclusion of the Shell's Wonderful World of Golf episode of his famous match with Sam Snead at Houston Country Club.

Sequences "a" and "b" start with Hogan at the top of his swing, before much of his "counter-fall."

Sequence a's out-toss left arm was taken from a position about 20 inches pre impact and rotated back to match his shoulder location at the top.

Sequence b's out-toss left arm was taken from the left arm parallel to the ground position and rotated back to match his shoulder location at the top.

Sequence "c" starts with Hogan already into his downswing to more closely replicate the top of the backswing of a less flexible golfer. Sequence c's out-toss left arm was taken from slightly after the shaft parallel to the ground position pre-impact and rotated back to match his shoulder location at the top.


​
The "a" sequence is a version of the out-toss from my video Ideas about The Release. Here the golfer's feel at start-down is going from the turned left arm, bent right arm, cocked wrists position at the top, to a straighter—but not straight—right arm and a lot less cocked left wrist, with the left arm un-turned back to a slightly pre impact location.

This "out toss" works great for a golfer who's previous first move down was a very narrow tug of the left arm and grip, either straight toward the ball or even further forward.

The feeling of this move is a up and out basketball-type toss. Obviously, the body needs to cooperate with any first move down, and the "up and out-toss" requires a back that stays turned, but a fairly active lower body that shifts back to the center and pulls slightly on the torso.

The "up and out-toss" isn't the best idea for a golfer who already is throwing the clubhead ahead of his hands and arms, or the golfer who has a very slow un-tugged first move down with their pivot.



The "b" sequence is a more "as it really is" movement of a purely tangential pull of the club length-wise and out. This outward movement of the hands actually prevents the early un-cocking of the wrist much better than any pull downward and toward the ball, as it keeps the club's center of mass on the target side of the handle.

The "fiddle out-toss" feel is a non-tugged, back to the target, bent right wrist javelin-type movement that Homer Kelley described as "pulling an arrow out of a quiver" in The Golfing Machine. The movement was captured perfectly (if I do say so myself :)) by the first move of my fiddle-drill, a drill I invented back in the late 80's.

It works great for a golfer with a long slow release who has (or is working on) a less tugged transition, and golfers who suffer from massive, non-golflike clubhead throwaway. And obviously, some folks are better off trying to do what they actually need to do, instead of a feel working against their flaws.

The "fiddle out-toss" is not a good idea for golfers who need to feel a little right wrist toss from the top or they lose feel for the clubhead.



The "c" sequence is also a more realistic movement to what actually occurs in most great swings, but is more of a second-phase of the swing (as described by the work of Dr. Steven Nesbit) movement.

After waiting just slightly into the downswing, the golfer feels the "about the coupling-point" (mid point of the hands on the grip) down and around toss to speed up the clubhead and start "lining the club up" for impact.

The late "down and out-toss" works great for the golfer with a late tug and for golfers who have cured the early tug but still need a feel for the right wrist activating the clubhead.

The "down and out-toss" is a bad idea for golfers who have a toss built in to their move, either a correct one or a over done version.



Golfers have a variety of problems with their swings that require corrective measures. Sometimes, you can just tell the golfer exactly what you want them to do, and that is the best medicine. But often, golfers need a feel and that feel is ALWAYS in direct opposition to the movement they are trying to avoid. One of the out-toss concepts—or a customized version—will help a lot of golfers control their clubhead and clubface, sometimes almost magically. And as sure as the sun comes up every morning, it won't work at all for some.



 
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66er

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Late down and out toss, is this rotation about the coupling point? I've got rid of the early tug, the late one does sneak in now and then.
 
K

Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
I just hope everyone knows how good this article is. Should clear a lot of things up and it would be really hard to find anything this specific yet clear anywhere. Awesome job.
 
S

SteveT

Guest
Out-toss is the initial downswing loading of the shaft.

Exactly how does "out-toss" variations affect shaft loading at the start of the downswing?

Here are three graphs of typical downswing shaft loading profiles as determined from TrueTemper ShaftLab testing.

swingType_doublePeak.jpg


swingType_singlePeak.jpg


swingType_ramp.jpg


The scientific study backing up these curves is in Science and Golf II (1994): The Dynamic Performance of the Golf Shaft During the Downswing - J.H. Butler and D.C. Winfield (both of TrueTemper)
 
mgranato

mgranato

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These "isolated left arm pictures" used lately have brought some light to the dimmly lit space between my ears.
 
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puttmaster

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mgranato said:
Let us know how it goes.
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It went very well. Ended up ordering Titleist 712 AP2 5-W with KBS Tour S shafts. Tried several other shafts/heads but preferred the feel and overall flight characteristics of the AP2/KBS. Never got the 6-iron Land Angle to 50 with them but did consistently measure 45+, so I was happy with those results. (Spin rate was consistently around 6000+.)

Side note for clubaholics: I'm always prejudiced toward Mizuno irons and I originally was not interested in even trying the AP2s, based on the feel of the original model that I bagged in 2008 for less than a month. But, I was pleasantly surprised at the improvements in feel Titleist has made in them. YMMV
 
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SteveT

Guest
Brian.... love the vernacular you use to explain the scientific terminology of the golfswing kinetic and kinematic sequencing. +2 ;)
 
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natep

natep

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I especially like the Hogan sequence. Massive separation of the left arm from the chest in a very short time.
 
lia41985

lia41985

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