The Push Fade Parade

[Kevin Shields]

2° inside-out path
4° open clubface

face is 2° open to the path

.....etc....

OK.

Never Hook Again 2.

Just guessing number here.....will TrackMan all my patterns soon....

but....

NHA2 as in the video:

Driver

Stance line 2° open
Horizontal Swing Plane (PLANE LINE) 4° outside-in.
Attack Angle 2° downward
Clubhead Path 2° outside-in
Clubface 1° closed​

And an optimized driver using NHA2 components:

Stance Line 2° closed
Horizontal Swing Plane (PLANE LINE) 0°.
Attack Angle 2° upward
Clubhead Path 2° outside-in
Clubface 1° closed​

Hope this helps.

Also, I didn't see any of those golfers in the videos,d oding anything like a NHA2 backswing.

I have notice poorer results of NHA type numbers with a lower plane angle. If a better player, or reformed hooker, brings in his 6 iron at say 55 degrees, the NHA type swing, without steepening the plane angle, could lead to lagging the hosel. Just food for thought. Those type of players are better off aiming more left and fading it with a lower angle.

 

[HOT CHILLI]

I was afraid from those numbers...

HOT CHILLI you are correct i can't know 100% until i see him BUT from being a teacher in the real world and teaching this pattern (as well using it on my own) i am taking an educated guess as to what he is doing incorrectly.

I think you can know 100% IF you had the Launch Monitor which is correct(Trackman), of course I'm in no way comparing myself to you or other teachers here from experience and knowledge point of view, but for me I feel that I can go both ways from inside-out to outside-in path very ease without even knowing because I don't have enough tools to know/see when I ACTUALLY move from one side(NH2) to another(SD1) or even NSA2 (I can feel but it's not correct most of time), and clubface issues...that's much harder without trackman's numbers.

Look down on this thread, from my perspective what happens when I'm there on the range alone, tinkering, guessing and try to figure out...without the privilege of having you or other Brian's staff near me teaching and correcting.

Cliff Notes:
In his case, he is a reformed hooker who swung too inside/out and now he has dramatically moved his plane line left via the NHA pattern. However for someone like him his miss is going to be something similar to his OLD pattern which is too inside/out. Thus my suggestion (educated guess) is that he is employing too much drop before the rotation which is causing the inside/out path.

He's your student?

2° inside-out path
4° open clubface

face is 2° open to the path

.....etc....

OK.

Never Hook Again 2.

Just guessing number here.....will TrackMan all my patterns soon....

but....

NHA2 as in the video:

Driver

Stance line 2° open
Horizontal Swing Plane (PLANE LINE) 4° outside-in.
Attack Angle 2° downward
Clubhead Path 2° outside-in
Clubface 1° closed​

And an optimized driver using NHA2 components:

Stance Line 2° closed
Horizontal Swing Plane (PLANE LINE) 0°.
Attack Angle 2° upward
Clubhead Path 2° outside-in
Clubface 1° closed​

Hope this helps.

Thank you Brian for the confirmed(guessing) numbers.
That was my point about a swing that is decent with good fundamentals and ball flight of 1-3 Yards starting point direction(Dplane) and 1-7 Yards curvature(usually a low handicapper but who knows sometimes even a high handicappers gets lucky with good numbers at impact, if he swing like that every time with his ugly non conventional move he'll might turn pro...Furyk, and I think Furyk has a very interesting swing not to mention effective).

NHA2 Video -
Driver
Stance line 2° open
Horizontal Swing Plane (PLANE LINE) 4° outside-in.
Attack Angle 2° downward
Clubhead Path 2° outside-in
Clubface 1° closed

Naked eye(no measurement device Trackman or video) -
Pull3 Fade5(Yards), All referencess to the intended target line(club on the ground or 3 Yards spot infront of you ,the flag itself).
Ball starts 1-5 yards left of target
Ball flies straight, after 10-100 Yards curves right 1-6 Yards


Everything is fine, next swing same Pattern with just little bit more "drop" but still feels the same,
Stance line 1° open
Horizontal Swing Plane (PLANE LINE) 3° outside-in.
Attack Angle 2° downward
Clubhead Path 1° outside-in
Clubface 2° open

Push3 Fade7(yards)
Ball Starts 1-3 Right
Ball flies straight after 10-30 Yards curves right 1-6 Yards

After a few swing with 2-4 open face and squarish true path I'm thinking here we go again, those blocks to the right with my old inside-out pattern so I'll rotate more and drop and next swing -

Slice 20yards right
Clubhead Path 5° outside-in
Clubface 1° open
Ball Starts 1yard left of target,
after 10-20 yards begins curving 15-20 yards right

What!? slice?! ok less rotation more drop, also I'll try squaring up that face, more release and more roll with the left wrist, next swing -
Pull3hook10Yards
Clubhead Path 1° outside-in
Clubface 3° closed
Ball Starts 1-3 yard left of target,
after 10-100 yards begins curving 5-10 yards left

Now I'm probably coming over the top, less rotation more drop...bang duckhook,
Clubhead Path 2° inside-out
Clubface 2° closed
Ball Starts 3yard left of target,
after 10-30 yards begins curving fast 15-20 yards left

Ahhaaa again with my old pattern, ok NH2 NH2 NH2 now more rotation SWING LEFT SWING LEFT...ok pull2fade5 finally good shot
Clubhead Path 3° outside-in
Clubface 1° closed
Ball Starts 1yard left of target,
after 10-100 yards curves 3 yards right

Ok I'll take it...
I know I left out some datum and numbers but I'm still learning.
For sure more factors are involved but let's take the wind out and I let's say the driver fit's me.

This is an example of a 10 minute session with my driver, it seems like a lot of confusion but it's more tinkering and trying to figure my pattern, I'm sure I(like quite a few students of this game)have knowledge and info(I'm here so it make sense) but not sure about what pattern suits best, and basically jumping from one side(SD1) to the other(NH2) mixing up components.
I do have acces to slow motion video, so I can see and estimate more factors than the average amateur but still I feel that without the numbers it's still a guessing game specially with the irons where you move the ball farther from low point, you have the downward strike and insideout true path and aiming left to have outside-in planeline, more difficult, but you do have the backspin so less curve, thank god...

Brian please let me know if I made mistakes estimate the numbers ball start and flight and so...

Also, I didn't see any of those golfers in the videos,d oding anything like a NHA2 backswing.

The 1st video swing is me from...check this out, a high angle(12 feet) from the top roof of my car with a tripud looking down... it's SD1 Backswing mix with NH2 Downswing components(maybe).
I used to be laid off at the top of the backswing so I took SD1 backswing components,
My ball flight with a driver is a 1-7 yards fade and again I think that I have NH2 Downswing but who know's maybe I'm actually underplane with the SD1 Backswing,
Again I have the videos but numbers are so more important...My misses Push fade, push slice but again I'll might hit a pull fade/slice here and there, the pulls and hooks I really try to avoid...

The 3rd video from the 2nd Page(Haim Driver DTL) is in my opinion easy to fix because you have obvious mistakes plus the ball flight, 30 yards Slice...

More Video From High Angle(12 feet) videos -

HighAnglesDTL Open Stance - Slice30 Yards


HighAnglesDTL Close Stance - straight


BallViewFO 1200fps - Angle of Attack


Driver HighAngle Face On -


Driver HighAngle BehindUTL 300fps -


SkyViewFO Parallel Stance - Slow Motion clubhead at Impact



One hour like this -



NH2 Perfect Pattern K.J. Choi Driver FOClose Up Release DTL -



Byron Nelson & Ken Venturi ,Gary Player & Arnold Palmer Slow Motion Multi-Angles

 

[texagjosh]

Thus my suggestion (educated guess) is that he is employing too much drop before the rotation which is causing the inside/out path.

So how does a man go about fixing this? Seems like it's just a timing issue, which can be death to a commoner's ball-striking, much like trying to time a flip.

Seems like the band-aid would be to set up slightly open and allow the swing to do what it naturally does for that particular person's mechanic.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

No he's not my student but he posts regularly on here about his troubles and i can get a sense of his swing and what he is doing.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

So how does a man go about fixing this? Seems like it's just a timing issue, which can be death to a commoner's ball-striking, much like trying to time a flip.

Seems like the band-aid would be to set up slightly open and allow the swing to do what it naturally does for that particular person's mechanic.

There are drills that i would employ if he took a lesson from me or a different academy instructor to help him feel less drop in the downswing.

 

[brucifer]

I've noticed this as well Jim.

I used to come over the top with a fit in move, snap hooks were my friend with the longer clubs.

I'd been working on...

• Back and Forth Drill (to get me set right, slightly LCT)
• Catch the Drop
• Twistaway from release point to impact

It was working great, playing some of the best golf I have been, for about 2 weeks

But now I have blocks and push fades and with irons, a sort of ballooning flight.

So I think I also need to move toward more rotation and less down.

Any drills for encouraging this?

Thanks,
Bruce

 

[HOT CHILLI]

Do I think Trackman replaces teaching? Absolutely not! Brian and I had the most effective lesson to date because he knew EXACTLY what needed to happen.

All the teaching prior to Trackman has been nothing but educated guess work. How many times have you worked with a coach (without Trackman) and the next day found that doing the opposite of his/her suggestions worked better? Now, I am not saying that there aren’t obvious suggestions that a swing instructor can make to help someone. What I am saying is that Trackman removes the guess work and enhances anyone’s chances of changing ball flight and in the end technique.

That's what I wanted to say last post...

Brian or Jim(or Academy staff), How can I know what affected my ball flight more, the path(Outside-In, Inside-Out) or clubface to the path? if my miss wasn't clear, Push fade or almost straight with a fade or a fade, or a straight slice(Yep I had those too, the ball started straight, after 100 yards bam slice 20 yards curve)?
True Path is a result of the Horizontal Swing Plane(PLANE LINE) yes?

 

[joeunc]

I am a big flipper that I am working on diligently to no avail it seems. Today I tried setting up with my right arm on plane. I also usually hit high block pushes, but this made me hit high 10 yd draws. The ball definitely felt further away from me than usual and I guess that meant a more rotary motion? I also thought about swinging left, knowing that the clubhead is really only going DTL for a fraction of time. More like an in to in swing. This may be worth a try. Now If I can just cure my flippng ( I have COFF and all of B's vids as well), but still that right hand is killing me with the flip.