The real winner at Pinehurst....
- Thread starter azgolfer
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birdie_man
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Hahaha...at least he calls a spade a spade eh. He'll have the balls to say it was flat out a bad shot. What I like is he still gives insight as to why it was a tough shot or what went wrong...but he won't dick around the point. "That was a bad shot."
BigBadDonkey
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Well said 6bee - Unless I misuderstood you (kinda in a rush right now), I love the way Johnny gets to the point and says what he means. Honesty is hard to come by nowadays. So much 'industry fodder' on tv now.
A couple of examples -- earlier in the year Kenny Perry hit a lay up to the left of the green after Vijay put it in the water on the last hole. Miller said it was a "dead pull". Perry explained afterward he intentionally hit it left. At Doral, instead of describing how Phil and Tiger were trying to hit the correct shot for the hole (a draw), we had to listen to Johnny say how they were stupid to not hit a cut off the tee every time. If he really wanted to stir things up, he would have discussed whether the setup at Pinehurst favored luck over skill, which I believe it did.
Turn down the sound. I perfer Miller and his "instant mouth" over some suc up saying, "Nice Shot." It is easy for a pro to spin what he did, hours after the fact- Miller doesn't have that and is more correct and wrong most of the time. "Nice Shot Joe" is never right or wrong. Miller has guts....and knowleadge.
BigBadDonkey
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Can't believe Woods won't lose those hormones and accept to hit his Driver straighter and shorter... he'd win everything.
BigBadDonkey
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Hmm, didn't really understand your reply. What i meant was he looks like a kid trying to hit his Driver as hard as possible. He looks 'unprofessional' with his Driver to me.
He tries to hit his Driver 100-110%. You can see it clearly. Watch him hit an iron. Of course you should 'go for the Driver but not like Woods. Woods looks like he's at a long range driving tourny for every Driver off the Tee. None of the greats swung like that, not even nicklaus who went for it big time.
Woods Driver swing is out of control. He's worse than 'Seve was.
He tries to hit his Driver 100-110%. You can see it clearly. Watch him hit an iron. Of course you should 'go for the Driver but not like Woods. Woods looks like he's at a long range driving tourny for every Driver off the Tee. None of the greats swung like that, not even nicklaus who went for it big time.
Woods Driver swing is out of control. He's worse than 'Seve was.
birdie_man
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Heh...I think you have a point really.
He says he swings 80% or w/e but c'mon...no he doesn't.
Maybe with his irons like you said. I think you're right...if he really wants to hit some fairways maybe he shouldn't think he can hit it 320 and dead straight all the time. Throttle back a bit.
Everyone likes to hit it big no matter who you are I guess...it honestly is hard to swing easy when you have that driver in your hand.
I guess the draw of it is imagining "Gee...320 and straight eh...I wonder..." Imagine being able to do it consistently. BUT if you look at anyone who is really up there in driving distance they are not as accurate. Clubface/plane misalignment and ball dispersion is amplified over a longer range...that's just the way it goes.
He says he swings 80% or w/e but c'mon...no he doesn't.
Maybe with his irons like you said. I think you're right...if he really wants to hit some fairways maybe he shouldn't think he can hit it 320 and dead straight all the time. Throttle back a bit.
Everyone likes to hit it big no matter who you are I guess...it honestly is hard to swing easy when you have that driver in your hand.
I guess the draw of it is imagining "Gee...320 and straight eh...I wonder..." Imagine being able to do it consistently. BUT if you look at anyone who is really up there in driving distance they are not as accurate. Clubface/plane misalignment and ball dispersion is amplified over a longer range...that's just the way it goes.
birdie_man
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AND...I think the tour should shorten the courses and make them tough in other ways. i.e. narrower w/ more rough. Or at least try to satisfy the different playing styles out there more equally. Some would say that distance and speed IS skill...well, to a degree. Now...I'm not a short hitter, but I still have a hard time agreeing with that.
Since when has golf been a game of brute force. It shouldn't be...at least not all the time. Long hitters will always have an advantage anyway.
I'm not a guy who's gonna rave about going back to wood clubs and all that crap...and I'm not gonna say that's what needs to be done- because there's other ways of doing things....but they have held on to things a little more in baseball (with wooden bats)...what's the big deal?
Since when has golf been a game of brute force. It shouldn't be...at least not all the time. Long hitters will always have an advantage anyway.
I'm not a guy who's gonna rave about going back to wood clubs and all that crap...and I'm not gonna say that's what needs to be done- because there's other ways of doing things....but they have held on to things a little more in baseball (with wooden bats)...what's the big deal?
huestisc
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Sometimes the most obvious solution is not the correct one. The courses HAVE been shortened...by technology. The ball/club combinations of today are nearly 10 pct longer than 10 years ago....so a 7500 yd course is like a 6750 yd course "back in the day". You can grow rough higher, pinch the fairways, etc, and what will happen? Tiger and VJ will still hit driver, because if they have a smaller chance of hitting the fairway, then at least they want a wedge in their hands. With a 25 yd wide fairway, they can still miss it with a 3 wood or a 2 iron, but then they have to dig an 8 iron out of the rough. Tiger said as much in pre-US Open interviews. He said he would hit drivers down there as far as he could, to at least get the wedge in hand.
The fact is that with 300 yd average drives and 150 yd pitching wedges, most courses on tour play Driver/Wedge, which IS boring to watch. However, shortening the courses doesn't help much here. The USGA (and the R&A fell asleep on the tech issue, and the only way to bring back shotmaking is via the dreaded "rollback".
The fact is that with 300 yd average drives and 150 yd pitching wedges, most courses on tour play Driver/Wedge, which IS boring to watch. However, shortening the courses doesn't help much here. The USGA (and the R&A fell asleep on the tech issue, and the only way to bring back shotmaking is via the dreaded "rollback".
FanofHogan
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I've said it all along. Woods' strength or what separated him from the rest was his length. Just look at his par 5 stats for an example. Courses typically have 4 par 5s. That was pretty much an automatic -4 to start the round for him. With the technology making the leaps and bounds it did for the past few years, Woods lost that distance advantage. Suddenly everyone was poking it out there long. He couldnt make use of the new technology for whatever reason until they were finally able to tweak his equipment enough so that he could. I'm no golf swing guru, and others may disagree, but to me his swing changes were all about trying to get that distance advantage back. Professional golf anymore is just hit the ball as far as possible and go find it. I do think the powers that be were asleep and let the technology go too far, but I dont think rolling back is the answer, or at least the only answer. I think they can make the courses play more difficult for the guy who wants to bomb it. Narrow down the landing area out there 300+ yards. Make it more risky to just wail with the driver. Yes, Corey Pavin is still going to hit a club or two more into the greens than a Tiger Woods. But at least you are taking the wedge out of the longer hitters hands and making it a little more difficult for them.
BigBadDonkey
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Good points all... strongly agree Birdie man.. most of the real tough holes in the World are short and well designed. I think that's the problem with American resort courses. Way too linear, though I do realise there is a *point* to them being like that.
*Why not* make some 320 yard par 4s with trouble on them with interesting features. Would be great for the game spectators etc.
Some of those holes at Harbour town are good examples, also.
Some of the Heathlandparkland courses I play here in England, Woods would be Out of Bounds on most holes with some of the shots he hits.
Just extending courses with more length is surely not the only thing that can be done, and should be a minimum requirement in my humble opinion.
Golf is no way the game is was 20 years ago to me. The clubs are more like toys with less craftmanship, badly designed. And this lining players up behind shots is *obviously* wrong.
The USGA and R&A need a good kick up the backside and need to start *thinking*.
*Why not* make some 320 yard par 4s with trouble on them with interesting features. Would be great for the game spectators etc.
Some of those holes at Harbour town are good examples, also.
Some of the Heathlandparkland courses I play here in England, Woods would be Out of Bounds on most holes with some of the shots he hits.
Just extending courses with more length is surely not the only thing that can be done, and should be a minimum requirement in my humble opinion.
Golf is no way the game is was 20 years ago to me. The clubs are more like toys with less craftmanship, badly designed. And this lining players up behind shots is *obviously* wrong.
The USGA and R&A need a good kick up the backside and need to start *thinking*.
Let's see, if an average hole was driver, 7 iron. For the big four that would be 490 yards. An average par five should be driver, 3 wood. Thats 580 yards. Average par 3 a 6 iron. 190 yards. So if you multiply it out its 10*490 + 4*580 + 4*190 = 7980 yards. So this is length they should be playing. I watched an old World of Golf and Gary Player was hitting 3 wood into a par 4's green and a 240 yard par 3. When is the last time you saw Tiger do that ?
birdie_man
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Haha good post az.
I've never thought of it like that.
I don't care what anyone says...there are other ways of making courses tough...they can still give an advantage to long players on SOME holes. All I'm saying is that it should be balanced throughout the entire course...to benefit all skills and shots and player types, that is.
They've done it pretty well at a few courses lately...relatively short but still played very tough.
You're right hustisc...growing the rough out and pinching the fairways is prolly not enough to deter ppl from still bombing the driver out there 320 or w/e...but it's a start.
AND there are still other ways to hold back the bombers a bit from just letting loose (driver, wedge, driver, wedge, driver, wedge- etc.).
I dunno, put some water up there on some holes...put some deep bunkers out there...so there ACTUALLY is a risk once you go past 300 or w/e- "OK so you wanna hit it out here...well then you better hope you go dead straight." Risk vs. reward. That's what makes for excitement and interesting golf right? Entice these pros to take some risks so they either pull it off and it's a great drive...OR they screw up, get into weird situations and then have hit some REAL shots. Escape shots.
And they don't have to do every hole like that...just enough to make it more balanced and interesting. Like I said, the long guys still have an advantage no matter what is done to these courses. Put Tiger and Corey Pavin in the fairway from the same spot and it's like 7 iron vs. 5 iron...never mind that Tiger prolly hits his clubs way higher too, not just further(i.e. Corey's 5 iron prolly goes about as high as Tiger's 3 iron- that's just a guess but I bet it's close).
I just agree with the thinking that there is a better way to do it...that's really the bottom line.
I've never thought of it like that.
I don't care what anyone says...there are other ways of making courses tough...they can still give an advantage to long players on SOME holes. All I'm saying is that it should be balanced throughout the entire course...to benefit all skills and shots and player types, that is.
They've done it pretty well at a few courses lately...relatively short but still played very tough.
You're right hustisc...growing the rough out and pinching the fairways is prolly not enough to deter ppl from still bombing the driver out there 320 or w/e...but it's a start.
AND there are still other ways to hold back the bombers a bit from just letting loose (driver, wedge, driver, wedge, driver, wedge- etc.).
I dunno, put some water up there on some holes...put some deep bunkers out there...so there ACTUALLY is a risk once you go past 300 or w/e- "OK so you wanna hit it out here...well then you better hope you go dead straight." Risk vs. reward. That's what makes for excitement and interesting golf right? Entice these pros to take some risks so they either pull it off and it's a great drive...OR they screw up, get into weird situations and then have hit some REAL shots. Escape shots.
And they don't have to do every hole like that...just enough to make it more balanced and interesting. Like I said, the long guys still have an advantage no matter what is done to these courses. Put Tiger and Corey Pavin in the fairway from the same spot and it's like 7 iron vs. 5 iron...never mind that Tiger prolly hits his clubs way higher too, not just further(i.e. Corey's 5 iron prolly goes about as high as Tiger's 3 iron- that's just a guess but I bet it's close).
I just agree with the thinking that there is a better way to do it...that's really the bottom line.
BigBadDonkey
New
Good point on the long irons... I suppose you could bring in more Par 3 holes (200 plus yards) .e.g. 6-8 par 3 holes lol, which would kind of take soemthing away from the game, although it would be exciting for spectators.
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